When does a TPK occur?

When does a TPK occur?

  • Big Bad Evil Guy (BBEG) / End Game Fight

    Votes: 18 42.9%
  • Sub Boss Fight

    Votes: 12 28.6%
  • Normal (non-boss) Fight

    Votes: 14 33.3%
  • Random Encounter

    Votes: 16 38.1%
  • Trap / Trap Room

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • Condition Effect (disease, poison, etc)

    Votes: 8 19.0%
  • Environment (weather, terrain)

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Self-Inflicted / Inner Conflict (PC Attacks PC)

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • Plot Driven

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 11 26.2%

pdzoch

Explorer
Total Party Kill (TPK) can happen for a number of reasons. The dice just doesn't fall your way. The DM designs the event too powerful. The players make bad decisions. Karma. Etc.

Looking back on all the TPKs you have experienced, when did the TPK mostly happen? (I have included categories both in and out of combat) (And I have allowed for multiple answers for the truly unfortunate)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Mostly during the boss-ish fights. Which makes sense. We want these to be tough, memorable encounters. It's easy to get a little too excited with that, or to misjudge player/character competence.
 


S

Sunseeker

Guest
TPKs are, both in my experience and when I'm DMing, by my design, completely on the heads of the players. Either they engage in something way beyond their ability to deal with (like a dragon encounter where they can fight, but are intended to parley for quest reasons and they decide to be mouthy) or they completely FUBAR an otherwise manageable situation (like thinking more orcs=more XP, so they don't stop the orc running to sound the alarm, and then they get overrun).
 

Jhaelen

First Post
IME, it's almost always random/standard encounters, often coupled with terrain/obstacles that turn out to be detrimental.

Typically, they're caused by the players underestimating the threat and/or trying to limit the expenditure of their resources (e.g. spells, powers, magic items) to save them up for 'a harder encounter'. By the time they recognize the danger it's often too late, especially, if the terrain or circumstances prevent an easy escape.
Also, a small percentage of the encounters I design aren't meant to be winnable - at least not using straight combat. Sometimes the players just don't get the hints.

(Sub)Boss fights, on the other hand typically don't happen as a surprise. Often the players have ample warning and prepare and plan for the encounter. They also tend to go all-out because they know the encounter is going to be tough. So, as a result, TPKs are very rare in such a situation (unlike the death of one or two PCs, which isn't unusual, especially in the higher level ranges).

Note, that I'm not a fan of traps, so they rarely come up in my games. Especially those elaborate, deadly room traps aren't my idea of fun, not to mention completely unrealistic even for a high-fantasy setting.

'Condition effects' can of course contribute to a TPK, if they're caused by monster abilities, but in the systems/editions I use, they're never of the 'save or die' type, so they're only a minor factor.
 

Zhaleskra

Adventurer
When players assume that every single fight is specifically "balanced" to their party and they don't have the sense to run when they're getting their behinds served to them. To be fair, there as some GMs who are jerks and will close off routes for escape.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I don't think I've ever had a TPK outside of running one offs of tournament modules that are designed to produce TPKs, as usually at least one swift PC has been always able to escape the wreckage.

However, the general pattern of PC deaths has always been the same. In order of frequency:

a) Split the Party: This is the leading cause of PC death. In my current campaign (6+ years), of the 11 PC deaths, 9 in some fashion involved splitting the party, including the two days of disaster that lead to near TPKs that account for like 7 of the 11 PC deaths.

b) Party Cohesion Breaks Down: This is the leading cause of splitting the party. Operating as a unit, a typical PC party has the resources to win just about any single combat. When players become frightened though, most often because they are uncertain of the threat they face or what tactics they should attempt or if there is an intraparty disagreement over tactics, they tend to start thinking in terms of every man for himself. This results in PC's abandoning allies, with the result that the enemy is able to concentrate forces on a single PC, leading to a domino effect where each PC falling both reduces the ability of the party to handle the foe and further reduces party cohesion. The party routs, leading to the party splitting and often any or all of the additional complications listed below occur during the rout.

c) Party Failed to have an Exit Plan: Inevitably the party is going to get in over their head. This isn't always a problem, as parties can always fall back in an organized fashion and either outdistance their attacker, or put obstacles in the attackers way that break the pursuit long enough to get out of the situation. Deaths tend to happen when the party has to fall back, but has failed to clear obstacles in the path behind them - such has having entered through a vertical shaft, pressed forward through an area without clearing it, left traps in their own path, and so forth. The less mobile members of the party are unable to fall back with the group, causing the party to split, leading to deaths. Often made worse in a failure of party cohesion, as party members throw up obstacles or deliberately use paths of retreat to deter pursuit that are also obstacles to other party members.

d) BBEG: Since any fight with a BBEG is supposed to be dramatic, the encounter is usually balanced on a knife edge and bad luck can easily kill one or more PCs. This is particularly true if the party has been reckless with resources prior to the fight, or fails to respond appropriately to the threat the BBEG presents. Often a PC will die in the first round or two before the party as a whole adapts to the situation, and "goes nova" in an appropriate fashion. This is one of the few cases where deaths tend to happen that don't involve splitting the party, but they are almost inevitable if the party does split and then runs into the BBEG.

e) Room Traps: A party that pushes forward recklessly in to a room trap can find itself in over its head in a hurry. This is particularly a problem if the party split up, and only a fraction of the party has to extract itself on its own. Finding that you don't have the skill monkey to disarm the trap or open the doors, or don't have the healer to staunch the bleeding or restore the critical party member to consciousness, or don't have the spell-caster to invoke a change in the scenario, or don't have the brute you need to break something when a trap is trying to kill you pretty much means someone or everyone present is going to die. A couple of times though parties have been rescued by having a player just outside of the area of effect of the trap (for example, buried in sand traps), so there is a tradeoff here in staying together and still having enough tactical separation to avoid area of effect attacks.
 
Last edited:

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
IF a TPK happens, I'd say the vast majority are at 1st or 2nd level when PCs are so wimpy that the swinginess of combat can do them in, or at campaign end when the DM pulls out all the stops because there's no story loss if someone dies.

TPKs are really hard to happen in 5e. It's so easy to stand up fallen PCs - any healing will do it. Spells like revivify can be used even if they do die.

If they do, it's usually a combination of more than one of:
  • Vastly superior foes (numbers, high CR, particularly effective against the party, overwhelming terrain/hazard advantage, etc.)
  • A string of die rolls against the party (misses, missing saves, getting critted, etc.)
  • Not retreating before it becomes too late. (If you wait until all but one PC is down, you can't retreat and take the bodies.)
  • Stupidity.

Except for the very low levels where PCs are that fragile, I don't see TPKs coming from a single source.

BTW, laughing at "Plot Driven" as a choice. I've heard one-shots where that was part of it. There was one recently someone was talking abotu Viking PCs who were each trying to die heroically accomplishing a great feat to get into Valahalla. But for normal play, a plot-driven-TPK is hilarious.
 


MarkB

Legend
The roughest campaign I ever ran was Red Hand of Doom, which featured many character deaths due to some extremely tough battles. Until then, I'd had a reputation as an easy-going DM. Notably, the adventure is written so that by the time the party reach the second major friendly town, news of their deeds in the first town will have preceded them, giving them a certain level of fame or notoriety - but when I ran the campaign, none of the party members who made it to the second town had been around for the events in the first town.

In this campaign, the final TPK happened cumulatively. The campaign featured several dragons, which would be encountered piecemeal throughout, and any that survived their initial encounters with the party would make their way to the big mountain-top lair to act as guard-dogs for when the players got there.

The trouble was, these dragons weren't written up as suicidally brave, the encounters were all set in wide-open areas, and when a dragon decides to bail from a fight against a bunch of guys on foot, there's not a great deal they can do to stop it. In the end, three out of a possible five dragons were guarding that lair, and with the final battle taking place essentially on a wide, cover-free outcrop, there was no way that even the leveled-up party could stand against their combined breath attacks. And since they'd reached that outcrop by following a long, steep, winding, wide-open path too treacherous for horses, even if the surviving party members wanted to run away, there was no possible way for them to outrun a flying dragon.

I learned a lot from that campaign - mostly that just because a campaign book was professionally written it didn't mean that I should use its encounters verbatim.
 

Remove ads

Top