When is LA worth it?

[Pax]

An interesting throught, and I might do so thsi summer - but right now, I'm in the middle of a MASSIVE project that will provide adventuring opportunities for my face-to-face group all summer (think "part massive dungeon crawl, part multisite adventure" ^_^). With the level of detail I tend to put into hand--drawn maps, it'll be a lot of work to get it done.

Put it this way: when I had free access to unlimited ten-per-inch graph paper (being a kid with a parent that works with engineers has it's benefits, heh), I used to map out on one square equals one foot scale. Including varying wall thicknesses down to that resolution.

 

[Votan]

Not according to the SRD, nor the MM. MM1 page 176, under "creating a lycanthrope", says:



"Gear" means far more than just armor and weapons.


Want to buy armor? magic items? food? Got to stop being a "monster", and look normal for the benefit of the nice little superstitious villagers.


See above. Also, to avoid detection by Rangers with the favored enemy choice "lycanthrope".


Because the target has a high DR, and your natural weapons cannot penetrate it?

Because the target is REALLY big (as in, gargantuan or more)?


Right, size large. Which means a 5' wide corridor, ~10' tall (typical castle/dungeon corridor, in other words), will result in your being Squeezed.

And god forbid you go into a kobold nest ... where the BIG corridors are 5' wide and only 5' tall. That is even WORSE for you.

Smallfry don't tend to make big, wide corridors so that it's easier for the big guys to come inside and slaughter them.


And so on. Spellcasters of 13th or higher level have plenty of ways to either get out of a grapple, or make the grappler regret their decision ...

And the Mineral Warrior (DR 8/adamantine, +1 LA) loves that. A simple adamantine dagger does wonders. Or the cleric, with Righteous Might running (and DR 15/good or 15/evil), who likes your choice to grapple even more. Your strength damage bonus is more than overrun by damage reductions like that - damage reductiosn you could overcome with a weapon, but not typically with a natural attack.

Most of these issues can be solved by either:

a) the werebear being in human form (he's weaker in this form but the cases in which it happens should be rare)

b) Carrying a weapon as well (even if you do not often use it)

Magic items can be selected to maximize their potential to be used in both forms (amulets with long chains, for example).

I don't think anybody would argue that a werebear is ALWAYS better than a regular fighter. Otherwise we would see a lot of werebears and not a lot of other things as high level tanks. What a werebear is, in my opinion, is an example of where the LA is worth it for the benefits. In the hybrid form, the combination of reach, enhanced attributes and DR will, on average, be worth it (more than a regular fighter in my opinion but that is only an opinion).

Of course a DM can create circumstances where these abilities are minimized or nullifed. That is easy.

Still, the human form creates options. If you need to go into bear from in a melee in a city then that is okay -- Druids pull it off. And if you infect others they become LG bears which doesn't create a rampaging monster problem.

Now if you have paranoid villagers who kill anything that isn't human or demi-human -- and look closely for evidence of this -- then that is a campaign specific role-playing disadvantage that would make such a form less optinmal for playing.

The only thing you'd really need to be hybrid form for in a village is fitting clothes and armor. With some crude dimensions and another player with any sort of armoring skill (heck, the bear could have this skill, it would just take longer) this could be worked around.

Annoying? yes. But it is a legitimate option to enhance the fighter.

 

[Pax]

It works as per Disguise Self, which works as per the Disguise rules, which mention nothing about types.

Even better, then - Disguise Self cannot change your size - plus or minus one foot of height isn't going to change your size category. And a werebear in hybrid form is size Large.

So ... which size large creature does he disguise himself as ... ? ^_^

Most of these issues can be solved by either:

a) the werebear being in human form (he's weaker in this form but the cases in which it happens should be rare)

Which gives you problems wearing or carrying anything at all. That's one heck of a lot of clothes you'll be ruining, for example, as you get into situations where you have to go to hybrid form right then, with no time to disrobe and preserve those clothes. Nor put on yoru hybrid-sized armor, either.

b) Carrying a weapon as well (even if you do not often use it)

Either size-inappropriate for wielding in hybrid form, or, of remarkably unusual size while carrying it around in human shape. Why? Simple: a Human is size medium; a Human/Werebear in hybrid form is size Large.

Magic items can be selected to maximize their potential to be used in both forms (amulets with long chains, for example).

Wouldn't fly with a reasonable GM. A necklace thatw oudl fit a size Large creature like an Ogre or hybrid-shape Werebear would be a belt for a human.

I don't think anybody would argue that a werebear is ALWAYS better than a regular fighter. Otherwise we would see a lot of werebears and not a lot of other things as high level tanks. What a werebear is, in my opinion, is an example of where the LA is worth it for the benefits. In the hybrid form, the combination of reach, enhanced attributes and DR will, on average, be worth it (more than a regular fighter in my opinion but that is only an opinion).

For the job of tanking, yes, you're absolutely right - the reach, power, and DR will serve you very well indeed. However, almost everywhere else, you will be disadvantaged. That is the nature of playing a specialised race aimed at a specialised role.

 

[James McMurray]

Even better, then - Disguise Self cannot change your size - plus or minus one foot of height isn't going to change your size category. And a werebear in hybrid form is size Large.

It depends on how tall you are as a bear. You could likely pass yourself off as a half-giant.

That's one heck of a lot of clothes you'll be ruining, for example, as you get into situations where you have to go to hybrid form right then, with no time to disrobe and preserve those clothes.

Clothes cost what, about 3gp? I think a 9th level guy can afford a lot of extra outifts.

Either size-inappropriate for wielding in hybrid form, or, of remarkably unusual size while carrying it around in human shape. Why? Simple: a Human is size medium; a Human/Werebear in hybrid form is size Large.

Which is why you pass yourself off as a half-giant, they are expected to carry large sized weaponry. A medium sized sword would be more suspicous.

Magic items can be selected to maximize their potential to be used in both forms (amulets with long chains, for example).

Not necessary. Magical items resize themselves for the wearer. That amulet will fit you no matter what size creature you turn into.

 

[Pax]

It depends on how tall you are as a bear. You could likely pass yourself off as a half-giant.

Size Large is Size Large.

Not necessary. Magical items resize themselves for the wearer. That amulet will fit you no matter what size creature you turn into.

Re-read the Lycanthrope template; it specifically says that the lycanthropes gear does not change along with them. Take it off and drop it, change shape, pick it up again and put it back on - sure, it'll resize.

But if your Human/WereBrownBear is wearing a Girdle of Giant Strength, and shifts from Human form to Hybrid form -- the belt is not[ going to shift with you. Which, for a belt - given the sudden gain in girth - typically means it's damaged, if not outright destroyed.

 

[Votan]

Which gives you problems wearing or carrying anything at all. That's one heck of a lot of clothes you'll be ruining, for example, as you get into situations where you have to go to hybrid form right then, with no time to disrobe and preserve those clothes. Nor put on yoru hybrid-sized armor, either.

Either size-inappropriate for wielding in hybrid form, or, of remarkably unusual size while carrying it around in human shape. Why? Simple: a Human is size medium; a Human/Werebear in hybrid form is size Large.

Wouldn't fly with a reasonable GM. A necklace thatw oudl fit a size Large creature like an Ogre or hybrid-shape Werebear would be a belt for a human.

For the job of tanking, yes, you're absolutely right - the reach, power, and DR will serve you very well indeed. However, almost everywhere else, you will be disadvantaged. That is the nature of playing a specialised race aimed at a specialised role.

Well, I think some of these objections could be worked around. A 2 handed sword could be a longsword for hybird form. You'd kill a lot of clothing in emergencies but hopefully they wouldn't be a common occurance. I'd adventure in hybrid form.

The amulet could be a choker in bear form and hang down to the navel in human form (kinda like a chessy 80's vampire). Plus, won't some magic items resize as a property of the items?

If not then, yes, gear is going to be tricky and care will need to be taken.

Still, an okay LA race in that it is a trade. I contrast this to the 3.5 E bugbear which has been terribly nerfed or the Troll which doesn't not have such a convienent way to handle this issues.

 

[Pax]

Well, I think some of these objections could be worked around. A 2 handed sword could be a longsword for hybird form.

By revision rules, that's still a penalty for using a wrong-sized weapon. The grips of a human-built greatsword are not the same as the grips of a giant-sized longsword.

The amulet could be a choker in bear form and hang down to the navel in human form (kinda like a chessy 80's vampire). Plus, won't some magic items resize as a property of the items?

See myc omments above. Lycanthropes have the SPECIFIC trait, of their gear NOT being resized (Etc) as they change forms. Take it off, change, put it on - it'll resize. Change while wearing it? Nope.

Still, an okay LA race in that it is a trade. I contrast this to the 3.5 E bugbear which has been terribly nerfed or the Troll which doesn't not have such a convienent way to handle this issues.

Oh, I'm not saying that a lycanthrope is never worth it; if all you're concerned with is beign able to beat up on badguys with greater flair and applomb ... great.

Just don't expect the villagers to greet you with open arms, once they get to know what you ARE. ^_^

 

[foxylady]

I once threw a Werebear Monk/Warshaper/Reaping Mauler at my PCs of their CR.

It's a technically illegal build. Werebear is large, and one of the prerequisite feats for Reaping Mauler requires size medium or smaller.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Pax, what exactly are you trying to convince me of? That werebears have problems? Sure. I agree.

But so does everything. An 11th level human fighter has weaknesses, too.



All I'm trying to say is that I think that werebears are pretty powerful in comparison to the base race/class combinations for tankish types. The other considerations you have mentioned, such as small spaces and peasant superstition, don't really affect that view, nor are they problems at the level when you can play a werebear.

DM: "You can't find an armorsmith because of the superstitious populace."
Player1: "Okay that sucks. Yo, cleric, can you help me out?"
Player2: "Sure, no problem. You saved my butt when I was grappled by that fiendish kraken."

*Player2 casts plane shift to Sigil. Player1 goes to the magical bazaar of the multiverse, where abashai and githyanki are shopping along with humans and efreet. He then buys a shiny new mithral breastplate+5.*

Because "the other people" are likely to have their OWN business to conduct, and might get tired of doing all of YOUR shopping as well. Several characters I've played owuld have charged you a 10% "finder's fee" for their time and effort.

And for things like armor, you rather have to BE there, so that the armorer can properly fit the stuff to your body.

Man, it must suck to facilitate teamwork in your campaigns. If someone pulled that type of behavior on me, I wouldn't tank for them. (Just as I wouldn't tank for a cleric who wouldn't heal or buff me.)

And a werebear doesn't have to be there to get the armor enchanted, or even buy most things.



Anyway, you obviously are playing a completely different type of campaign than I am. That's fine.

But this...

Just don't expect the villagers to greet you with open arms, once they get to know what you ARE.

...is campaign specific.