When PCs break the law

[Fifth Element]

Lawful Good characters that repeatedly break the law and/or refuse to submit to the proper authorities should end up shifting alignment - voluntarily or not.

Characters who repeatedly break the law and refuse to submit to the proper authorities are not Lawful Good. It's that simple. Behaviour determines alignment, not the other way around.

You should speak to the players to point this out. Determine the characters' alignments based on how they behave in the game, not what's written on their character sheets. If they want to play law-breakers, fine, but they need to realize it might affect their options. Only characters who behave a certain way are able to be paladins, for instance.

 

[SavageRobby]

Maturity is _not_ the problem, rather it is the mind set that "We are the heroes of the game, we can do anything".

You say tomato, I say tomato.

Just ask Michael Vick, Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis or Rae Carruth about being heroes and getting away with "anything". Nevermind OJ Simpson from that list though - one or two always fall through the cracks. And even the OJ case demonstrates that you have to work within the system to get away with it, as well.


Kahuna Burger summed up nicely the approach of the application of law to the PCs. One thing to keep in mind is what the big fish of the area's approach is towards lawbreakers. Some may use excessive force to squish them to "show who's boss" (especially in unstable areas), some may not care a whit, while others may actually try to recruit such an obviously capable band of adventurers (holding a pardon for their crimes as a reward).

 

[dmccoy1693]

(holding a pardon for their crimes as a reward).

Before this can be effective, the players have to feel the that their crimes carry weight. Having them hunted down by an adventuring party (or even a single paladin/monk, miko) and brought before a court (even if it is rigged, shojo) can make a serious difference. Just make sure that the charges brought against them have death as the only possible sentence. Make them feel like they're going to spend an age category in jail. Then have a politician say that he can talk to the judge and end your sentence if you do this one "tiny, little" job (for no money, save what they find there) and not commit anymore crimes.

 

[Bagpuss]

Only a "lawful" alignment is never allowed to break the law.

Common misconception.

A lawful character can break the law.

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.


If the law breaks the traditions they wish to uphold, or the legal authority fails in it's duties, or the law of the land conflicts with their word.

On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.

If a lawful character is use to free speech and no slavery and the government of his land was suddenly replaced by one that oppressed his people and introduced slavery it would still be a lawful act to oppose that change.
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As for the original post

If your group aren't acting like heroic characters then perhaps you are best off not running a heroic campaign.

 

[Zurai]

If a lawful character is use to free speech and no slavery and the government of his land was suddenly replaced by one that oppressed his people and introduced slavery it would still be a lawful act to oppose that change..

Which is why I maintain that Robin Hood fits as a Lawful Good character. He's absolutely not Chaotic - he has a moral code that he follows and he considers himself a loyal King's man. He fights against the 'established authority' because said authority is an usurper.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think perhaps I may have mis-characterized it a little. Maturity is _not_ the problem, rather it is the mind set that "We are the heroes of the game, we can do anything". I think it's something that is experienced in a lot of games.

Action brings reaction. Try to use the real world as an example.

(1) The Law will try to do what it can to make the PCs comply. They will not worry about how much this hurts the PCs. However, you should not simply give the Law the power to beat the PCs. Don't change the power level of the locals, just have them do what they reasonably can do.

(2) Common people treat outlaws like outlaws. Sometimes this is a good thing (Robin Hood, Jesse James, the Godfather) and sometimes this is not (average criminal). Have people react to the PCs depending upon how they treat average folks.

(3) When the Law can't force you, it attempts to co-opt you: Marriage, fiefdoms, shiny baubles. After all, when the Law is your friend, you are more likely to listen.

(4) Sometimes, the PCs really are the toughest people around. That's okay. Once they've proven it to the local Law, they might actually become the new local Law. People start asking the PCs to sort out their petty differences. This used to be one of the goals of "name level" in 1e. Feel free to embrace it in 3e.

(5) Alignment is what you do, not what you say. If the character isn't lawful or good, he should gain the benefits of neither. Just make sure you give them the benefit of the doubt. If they can tell you why their actions are lawful and/or good, and it makes any kind of sense, strongly consider going with it.

(6) Have fun.

RC

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The Sheriff will call on the Count, the Count will call on the Duke, the Duke will call on the King, and Robin will be outlawed to Sherwood. (If they are being the good guys.)

If they are murdering their way across the land they will end up decorating trees.... Or having their eyes staring up sightlessly from baskets if they are nobles. (I once had a party hanged for murdering an orc... and it was murder, not just killing a monster, poor fellow had no clue why they even attacked him.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Deset Gled]

It also depends on the laws they're breaking. Not paying oppressive taxes is a lot different than killing and stealing, for example.

This seems relevant.

Please, Maddox, don't kill me for hotlinking. It's not stealing bandwidth, it's homage to the original artist.

 

[William drake]

If this topic has already been covered, I would be much obliged if someone could point me in the right direction.

if not...

I am currently DMing the AoW adventure path, and though the PCs have not _really_ run afoul of the law yet, the _players_ have a habit of it in previous games, and it always stymies me. I've explained the way i see alignments working in my games, and that in general if you are lawful or good, you should probably obey the law.

But what is a DM to do when a lawful or good PC breaks the law and refuses to surrender to the authorities when they come to arrest him/her? When they get to higher levels this becomes a particular problem given the usual class and levels of the average town militia/sheriff.

I guess the authorities could hire another party of equivalent level adventures as bounty hunters, or decree that no business in town can sell to, or buy from them transgressor, but that I think just sort of exacerbates the problem with some PCs.

So, how do you get it across to the _players_ that hey are not free to willy-nilly break the law (if they are lawful and/or good) with no consequences?

IF they are Good and breaking the law...then they become bad. Its that simple. Now, if they are like Captian America in the recent Civil War comics, and are fighting for their rights...say fighting against an Evil Governemnt or w/e, then they are still SEEN as bad, but maybe not in all circles or maybe in all circles to the point that society has changed. And they now live in an Evil Area, and now they are the minority.

But yes, if they break the law because of bad RP'ing or simple "this is a game and I can do what I want" then yes, they should be punished for it. IF Batman were ever caught, do you think he'd get an easy break. No. Same rules apply. If said hero resisted, they would take meassures to stop him, subdual or leathal...its the Law and the safety of the public that matters. Not the hero gone wrong.

Another thing, why not let him know that he is doing wrong. People talk bad about him. Signs curse his name. Lots of things will show someone what they are doing is wrong.


My advice. IF you have players breaking the rules...punish them. One, they might be doing it for Rp'ing style. That is to say they know what will happen if they get caught, but choose to do this because their character would really rather keep his sword than turn it in. On the other hand, they might be players running amuck. In that case, you have to deal with it or if not, and then you try and do it later beause you've finally had enough they will call you on it. And then they will be right.


Another thought. IF the isssues is power. Man power tends to upset the odds. The Hero is just one man. If say the Keeper of the Watch was to appoint 20men to hunt down and arrest said hero day and night...he would be caught pretty soon or run. How do you think the West was won. The term is called "Possy" they don't have to contract out the task of getting the man gone wrong, but what they can do is go above the law themselves. Buy sell or trade info for you know who's wereabouts. Arest his family, his friends. Make him be someplace they know he will through theirown tactics. Now this all depends on what the players are doing. If say they keep stealing cars....this kind of effort wouldn't take place to capture them. On the other hand, if they say killed the Mayor who was secretly in the pocket of the local guild, and had a history of his own evil deeds. And said hero was caught in the act...then measures aformentioned might take place.

Either way. Good Luck and Game ON

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hopefully talking will work. Cycles of revenge can take over a campaign in a very negative way.

You can shift their alignments, but that doesn't mean anything anymore. (In the old days, a neutral character who shifted towards good would suffer XP loss. )

If they don't listen, homing pigeons can carry their descriptions to nearby towns and cities. Eventually some high level good-aligned characters will come back from their adventures or leave their barracks from a big city and track down the PCs. All these adventurers will be higher level, and will attempt to non-lethally put down the threat (but will abandon the non-lethal mentality if the PCs fight back dirtily). Note that ambushing is perfectly fair; even if the PCs see the "opponent" fighter or paladin and his squad calling them to surrender, they may not see the NPC Rogue and Ranger who had been helping that squad track them down.