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When Will and When Should WotC Release 4th Edition?
- Thread starter William Ronald
- Start date
William Ronald
Explorer
Too late for that, don't you think.
Seriously, megamania, what do you think about the topic other than giving WotC any ideas? I think that the gaming community, as a whole, has some impact on what WotC does. (Most businesses that survive for a long time do so by understanding the wants and needs of their customers. I think that 3.5 may be an effort to respond to this. Whether it is premature or not is something we must decide as individuals.)
I think it will still be a few years before we see a new edition. I wonder whether WotC can take some of the concepts other D20 publishers have developed and incorporate them into the core rules. Also, I see that "Other" is still getting a fair amount of votes. Does this mean people believe that someone else other than WotC will release a future edition of the game?
Seriously, megamania, what do you think about the topic other than giving WotC any ideas? I think that the gaming community, as a whole, has some impact on what WotC does. (Most businesses that survive for a long time do so by understanding the wants and needs of their customers. I think that 3.5 may be an effort to respond to this. Whether it is premature or not is something we must decide as individuals.)
I think it will still be a few years before we see a new edition. I wonder whether WotC can take some of the concepts other D20 publishers have developed and incorporate them into the core rules. Also, I see that "Other" is still getting a fair amount of votes. Does this mean people believe that someone else other than WotC will release a future edition of the game?
William Ronald
Explorer
Does anyone think that a rule limiting how high bonuses, especially skill bonuses, can stack would be a welcome addition to a 4th Edition game?
Also, would hero points be a good addition to the game?
Also, would hero points be a good addition to the game?
Kae'Yoss
First Post
We already have maximum values for bonuses (they could be tinkered with a little maybe), and beyond that, it's the DM's jog to decide what is in and what isn't (and it's his job to prevent someone getting dozens of items that grant +10 or something to the same skill, with different bonuses.)
William Ronald
Explorer
Any other suggestions?
A few people mentioned consolidating things from different D20 games? What elements of some of those games might be a welcome addition to the D&D rules? What elements would not be a good idea for the core rules?
Are there any part of the rules that should be greatly changed in a 4th Edition? For example, I know a few people have mixed feelings (or worse) about some elements of the Epic Level Handbook.
A few people mentioned consolidating things from different D20 games? What elements of some of those games might be a welcome addition to the D&D rules? What elements would not be a good idea for the core rules?
Are there any part of the rules that should be greatly changed in a 4th Edition? For example, I know a few people have mixed feelings (or worse) about some elements of the Epic Level Handbook.
A'koss
Explorer
I think that what we really need to see is a compression of the disparities between characters at higher levels so that the d20 roll doesn't become increasingly marginalized. I've touched upon my wishes for 4e in the past, and I think they are worth reiterating here.
(From April 2003)
1. Rule #1. The game should be geared towards having combat last a certain number of rounds, regardless of level, when facing "equivalent CR" opponents. 6 to 8 rounds for example. Once you have such a philosophy in place, build the game around that, doing whatever is required to make it work.
Secondly, your d20 is your lynchpin random element in the game, make sure you do not marginalize or remove it's value in the game against equivalent CR opponents. Stacked bonuses can easily do that now.
2. HP creep and HP disparity. HP disparities between the classes create all kinds of problems at higher levels. When you design an encounter that challenges your best character, your weakest ends up being 1 round road-kill. I'm thinking that Wiz-classes should get a bump to 1d6 HD, Rogues to 1d8, and everyone else stays the same. You get to apply your Constitution bonus until 10th level, after which you only gain your straight HD (no Con bonuses) until 20th level. After 20th level, a further reduction/compression is probably in order (everyone goes to d4?) but I'm not sure how much... The Wizard bump helps them down the line as they generally don't have the Con the other classes do. It's much easier to design adventures around 80 - 100 HP differences than it is to have to deal with 150 - 200+ HP disparities... Wizards get re-balanced spell-wise.
3. Stats. Unlike earlier editions where stat bonuses were hard to get and you didn't get as much out of them, 3e is very generous in both. Stats aren't really an issue until higher levels where stat discepancies between the characters (and between PCs and encounters) can throw things off. Spell DCs for example (which simply should *not* be modified by your stats)... and especially so in combination with stat boosting spells. Con offers a massive, and long-term benefit that simply wasn't possible in earlier editions.
4. Spells. Andy Collins (and now Monte Cook) has the right idea for Save or Die spells - turn them into damage. Again, spells should be designed from the standpoint that combat should last X amount of rounds, regardless of level, when facing equal strength opposition. That will involve reducing the effectiveness of their spells that allow a single roll to determine the outcome - save or die, save or nerf.
5. Combat. This will depend on whether you do anything towards reigning in stat accrual. Again, the d20 is your only random element, and it is easy to have massive combat disparities at high levels. I feel that combat progression should start reigning in after 10th level. The fighter-types have inordinate strength, magic weapons and combat feats that feed the disparities between the classes. Compression is good here and really helps DMs in designing challenges.
6. Saves. Saves need to be easier at high levels to ensure long-term survivability, especially since the price of failure keeps going up and up. In previous editions your HL saves we're easy, but your low level ones were hard. I'd suggest we add a "Med. Save" like we see in some other d20 products. At 20th level we should be seeing something like Good +12, Med +10, Poor +8. Unlike in earlier editions, you could have +10 to one save at this level, and +0 to another simply from stats alone. This is hard to design encounters around, especially if that +10 is towards your good save (which it usually is) and that +0 is towards your poor save (which it usually is).
7. Skills. One poster on this MB had what I thought was a brilliant suggestion here. Certain skills were treated like BAB or Saving Throws in that you gained ranks in them every level. These adventuring skills would be Sense Motive, Spot, Listen and Search. Some skills simply need to be redesigned IMO, diplomacy, perform and epic level usages of bluff, intimidation...
8. AC. Class-based AC bonuses are fun... If someone could make that work and balance it out with armor and magic that would be ideal IMO.
Cheers,
A'koss.
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howandwhy99
Adventurer
My personal opinion is that so much of 3rd edition is so done well, a 4th is almost unnecessary. 3.5 was more of a patch to the system. The number of rules changed vs. the number of rules in the entire game is minor. IMHO, taken as a whole, I don't believe that 3rd edition has nearly as many problems as the past two do.
Reading what the other posters here are saying, I'm wondering whether or not Wizards shouldn't put out a couple of "alternate versions" of the rules. I'm not quite sure how extensive Unearthed Arcana will be with its optional rules, but I doubt they will go far enough for many.
My suggestion is that D20 has gotten big enough to have a few kid brothers and sisters. Maybe 3E Rules Light and 3E Low Magic core rulebook systems could be added, instead of revamping ...how skills work, how feats work, how spells work, the core mechanic, etc. An epic ruleset (with rules for converting from the other systems) could be created with more specifics, bulk, and flare, than the current build-it-yourself system.
To be very clear, what I'm suggesting are not rule add-ons, but different games based on the D20 system like D20 Modern. (but with rules for changing between the systems)
This way everybody wins. Wizards expands the market to new and different players' tastes and can publish more core books, fans get to choose which ruleset they prefer for the style of game they're playing, the D20 community can support more than one ruleset building different styles of games off of different rulesets, and (presumably) plenty of rules still synchronize. Each game system would (ideally) be rigorously playtested to be balanced within itself. Basic components like spells and feats could include rules for crossover. A non-Vancian spell system game could be created and balanced without revamping the core rules.
OTOH, if the whole of the game changes, then our current D20 books become as obsolete as 1st and 2nd edition books do in relation. A revamped 4E conversion could change the format for every class, race, item, feat, skill and spell currently out on the market. With the creation of different rulesets, Wizards could incorporate new versions of the game and still update (a la 3.5) the core ruleset like A'koss suggests above.
Edited for spelling
Reading what the other posters here are saying, I'm wondering whether or not Wizards shouldn't put out a couple of "alternate versions" of the rules. I'm not quite sure how extensive Unearthed Arcana will be with its optional rules, but I doubt they will go far enough for many.
My suggestion is that D20 has gotten big enough to have a few kid brothers and sisters. Maybe 3E Rules Light and 3E Low Magic core rulebook systems could be added, instead of revamping ...how skills work, how feats work, how spells work, the core mechanic, etc. An epic ruleset (with rules for converting from the other systems) could be created with more specifics, bulk, and flare, than the current build-it-yourself system.
To be very clear, what I'm suggesting are not rule add-ons, but different games based on the D20 system like D20 Modern. (but with rules for changing between the systems)
This way everybody wins. Wizards expands the market to new and different players' tastes and can publish more core books, fans get to choose which ruleset they prefer for the style of game they're playing, the D20 community can support more than one ruleset building different styles of games off of different rulesets, and (presumably) plenty of rules still synchronize. Each game system would (ideally) be rigorously playtested to be balanced within itself. Basic components like spells and feats could include rules for crossover. A non-Vancian spell system game could be created and balanced without revamping the core rules.
OTOH, if the whole of the game changes, then our current D20 books become as obsolete as 1st and 2nd edition books do in relation. A revamped 4E conversion could change the format for every class, race, item, feat, skill and spell currently out on the market. With the creation of different rulesets, Wizards could incorporate new versions of the game and still update (a la 3.5) the core ruleset like A'koss suggests above.
Edited for spelling
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howandwhy99
Adventurer
BUMP
William Ronald
Explorer
Howandwhy99,
You make several interesting points in your post, and your approach is something I honestly have not considered before. I am uncertain if WotC would pursue your approach, because they might be worried about dividing the D20 market into different segments. (TSR ran several campaigns and products that did not prove profitable in the long run, and effectively divided their market into smaller and smaller shares by product type. Does anyone here have Ryan Dancey's article on the fall of TSR?)
However, having different rules might be appealing to some gamers and companies. I know there have been some discussions about rules light and low magic games here at EN World. Any further thoughts on this?
So far, I think the poll numbers are staying fairly constant, with a wait of 5 years or more for a 4th Edition being the most popular option. Maybe MerricB can do a more detailed analysis for us again.
How do you think products like Arcana Unearthed by Malhavoc Press and the upcoming Unearthed Arcana by WotC, the new Miniatures rules from WotC, and some other releases will impact on the future of the game, and a possible 4th Edition? I suspect if AU sells very well, this might bode well for it having an impact on a future edition --- or at least getting Monte Cook invited into the design team.
I realize this thread is very premature about a month after 3.5 was released. However, many of the gamers I know locally in the Chicago area did start speculating on a 4th edition?
Maybe some store owners and gaming industry professionals might like to chime in on this thread? Thanks to everyone for their opinions. It seems that EN World has no shortage of good ideas.
You make several interesting points in your post, and your approach is something I honestly have not considered before. I am uncertain if WotC would pursue your approach, because they might be worried about dividing the D20 market into different segments. (TSR ran several campaigns and products that did not prove profitable in the long run, and effectively divided their market into smaller and smaller shares by product type. Does anyone here have Ryan Dancey's article on the fall of TSR?)
However, having different rules might be appealing to some gamers and companies. I know there have been some discussions about rules light and low magic games here at EN World. Any further thoughts on this?
So far, I think the poll numbers are staying fairly constant, with a wait of 5 years or more for a 4th Edition being the most popular option. Maybe MerricB can do a more detailed analysis for us again.
How do you think products like Arcana Unearthed by Malhavoc Press and the upcoming Unearthed Arcana by WotC, the new Miniatures rules from WotC, and some other releases will impact on the future of the game, and a possible 4th Edition? I suspect if AU sells very well, this might bode well for it having an impact on a future edition --- or at least getting Monte Cook invited into the design team.
I realize this thread is very premature about a month after 3.5 was released. However, many of the gamers I know locally in the Chicago area did start speculating on a 4th edition?
Maybe some store owners and gaming industry professionals might like to chime in on this thread? Thanks to everyone for their opinions. It seems that EN World has no shortage of good ideas.
Hopping Vampire
First Post
tomorrow
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