When Will and When Should WotC Release 4th Edition?

[William Ronald]

Sorry again.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Should a new edition include epic level play in the core rules, and what would you want such rules to look like?

Either they have to be very light or not in the core rules at all. It should remain a separate book. Look at the number of feats we have and epic monsters.

If epic rules became an integral of the core rules (and IMO, they should remain optional), you would have to make it much shorter. My thoughts on this:

• Feats: Instead of "Epic (Feat Name)" we should have an "Epic" part in the descritpion of other feats (like we have "Special" and "Benefit").
  Example: Weapon Specialization. Should read something like
  ......
  Stacking: Can be taken again for the same weapon at 12th-level.
  Epic: (Pre: Epic Weapon Focus)Can be taken a third time as an epic feat.
  Example:Dodge
  ......
  Epic (Pre: Dex 25...): Allows to negate one attack completely
• More class abilities that work like a formular.
• Skills: Epic uses below normal uses (separated)
• Spell slots progress normally, without a feat.

Of course, this would need a lot of fine-tuning, and I don't know if it would work.

 

[William Ronald]

I think epic level rules could have a small part in the core rules. Just enough to give players and DMs a few hints of how to handle everything until a 4th Edition Epic Level Handbook would be produced. (The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting briefly addressed how to handle their epic level characters before the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook was released. This, combined with Kae Yoss' suggestions on feats, might be enough to give players and DMs a taste of future epic level rules.)

I suspect epic level rules would likely have to be separate from the core rules because of their complexity. There might be better integration with other products. (There is some overlap between Deities and Demigods and the ELH in 3.0, but similar books might be more tightly integrated in the future.)


Also, one thing that bugged me about the ELH were the artifacts. Now, a character can make a mace that works just like the Mace of St. Cuthbert. There was a sense of awe and danger about finding a 1st edition artifacts, but many of the 3.0 artifacts can be duplicated by many epic level characters. (For some of the more powerful items, maybe a few powers akin to those in 1st edition. Maybe epic level characters could create their own artifacts like this -- with the help of a higher or lower power (and after a few epic quests. Remember, few things that are worthwhile are easy.)

Perhaps there could also be a little more about what story elements can help make an epic level campaign sustainable. Possibly some discussion of character archetypes might help.

 

[Nightfall]

I already told Joe this...but if/when 4th edition comes around...and there are SUBSTANTIAL changes like 3.0...I say we have Kadum and the Titans come back for round 2! Who's with me? (Course I want to see the Mithril Golem and Kadum duke it out again. )

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Also, one thing that bugged me about the ELH were the artifacts. Now, a character can make a mace that works just like the Mace of St. Cuthbert. There was a sense of awe and danger about finding a 1st edition artifacts, but many of the 3.0 artifacts can be duplicated by many epic level characters. (For some of the more powerful items, maybe a few powers akin to those in 1st edition. Maybe epic level characters could create their own artifacts like this -- with the help of a higher or lower power (and after a few epic quests. Remember, few things that are worthwhile are easy.)

You can only copy the powers, not the artifact itself. There are things that will just not work with artifacts, but will work with an epic magic item that works like an artifact.

The "problem" is that epic levels are open-end. You can, eventually, copy every artifact, cause they have a fixed power level. This level is very high, but since you can have an epic character (and item creator) of any level, you can reach a point where you can copy these powers. But it doesn't mean that it will happen usually, for not every DM is willing to play to level 100 or so (30 or 40 are often the "pain threshold").

 

[ES2]

I said 3 years and they should do it.

What I would prefer they do, which they probably won't, is that instead of doing D&D4e, they just write a d20 book called d20 Fantasy.

Once they do this, we will have d20 Fantasy, d20 Modern, and d20 Future, and all the basis's will be covered with a single, generic d20 system that all use the same class system and are really interchangable with each other. IF they call it D&D: d20 Fantasy in one title, that's cool too.

 

[DaveMage]

I said 3 years and they should do it.

What I would prefer they do, which they probably won't, is that instead of doing D&D4e, they just write a d20 book called d20 Fantasy.

Once they do this, we will have d20 Fantasy, d20 Modern, and d20 Future, and all the basis's will be covered with a single, generic d20 system that all use the same class system and are really interchangable with each other. IF they call it D&D: d20 Fantasy in one title, that's cool too.

WotC would certainly want to use the strength of the D&D name for a 4th edition. Simply releasing a system called "d20 Fantasy" could certainly be done, but it would never have the same impact (read: sales) as D&D 4th edition.

I'm hoping that if they do release a 4th edition within 5 years that the changes will be minimal (kind of like 1e to 2e) so that all existing material can still be used. If not, I'll just keep playing with my 3.0/3.5 books and be happy.

 

[The Blue Elf]

Here is the problem, not many people enjoy 3rd edtion rules as they are because the issues of rules could not be comprehended. You might as well understand if they released D&D 4th edtion early then it would be more expensive to buy that book then it is waiting for supplements to come out.


If your hoping to the next edition just because your feel they are going to make it better just pray the don't make the Price for 4th edition $40.98.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

@The Blue Elf.

Is that per any chance an allusion to "La Blue Girl". Incidently, I played a "Blue Mage" (from Nymphology) in a short fun-campaign and signed all emails to my DM at that time with "La Blue Mage". And this character was an Elf.

but back to your regular posts.

 

[William Ronald]

DaveMage wrote:
WotC would certainly want to use the strength of the D&D name for a 4th edition. Simply releasing a system called "d20 Fantasy" could certainly be done, but it would never have the same impact (read: sales) as D&D 4th edition.

I tend to agree with you. The Dungeons and Dragon brand name is highly recognized, so much so that it is one of the few RPGs that non-gamers can name. I think that Hasbro/WotC or any other company that might acquire the Dungeons and Dragons brand ought to try to find ways to further promote the game. (Now if we could only get Vin Diesel and Lexa Doig to do a commercial on the cheap. )

KaeYoss: I tend to agree that past level 40, the ELH rules get more than a bit hairy. Even the 30s can be a challenge. For myself, I just wish there was more of a sense of wonder to the ELH and that the mechanics were similar to the rest of the system. (Essentially, some classes in the ELH had to obtain feats to pursue their primary class abilities -- spellcasting -- at epic levels. However, I seem to recall that one concept behind feats is that it would not be automatic for every character to acquire a given feat.

I do hope that any new edition would have a fair amount of support for converting from previous editions. (Web enhancements and PDFs would help.) There is sometimes a sense of things being lost in the translation between editions, and some changes that are sometimes amusing. (The demi-human life spans have changed a lot from 1st editon. It must have been amusing for a few players to find out that their characters should qualify for retirement under a new edition. )

The books for a new edition, as well as the upcoming 3.5 books, should be well written and fairly easy to understand. I struggled a little with some of the new concepts in 3.0. (Okay, moderators, how many threads did we have about Attacks of Opportunity in the first six months after 3.0 was released? More than one, I think. )

Any other suggestions?