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Where are all of the templates?
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DracoSuave
First Post
Templates aren't really the direction the game is going. They don't come up often enough to really justify a large number of them beyond the number they have.
i'm sure we'll see more in the DMG2, and maybe some more tossed around in Dragon Magazine at some point. But, you are right, as of now, there is only a small selection.
of course, how much you use templates depends on your group/game style/prep time/etc.
since the focus for the edition is quick prep, as dacosuave said, i don't think templates are a huge focus for this edition, which would explain the limited number.
(for me, personally, it's fine since my group's game style and my prep time limit my need for templates)
of course, how much you use templates depends on your group/game style/prep time/etc.
since the focus for the edition is quick prep, as dacosuave said, i don't think templates are a huge focus for this edition, which would explain the limited number.
(for me, personally, it's fine since my group's game style and my prep time limit my need for templates)
Well, my group is Uber-Tactics people, group of semi-genius types, so I have to do more than just throw stuff together... I have to design the dungeon or setting, down to last detail of what wood they used to make the table, etc etc...
And I have to make encounters that are truly challenging when each of these people play strategy type games without even paying attention have the time...
In this case, my players tend to memorize at a glance, the tactics their enemies use, and if they see a trend of any sort they learn it, and by the third fight, they suffer almost no wounds whatsoever...
Btw, this is with me using 2100 XP fights vs a group of lvl 4's... And they are slaughtering for 4 milestones at a time...
And I have to make encounters that are truly challenging when each of these people play strategy type games without even paying attention have the time...
In this case, my players tend to memorize at a glance, the tactics their enemies use, and if they see a trend of any sort they learn it, and by the third fight, they suffer almost no wounds whatsoever...
Btw, this is with me using 2100 XP fights vs a group of lvl 4's... And they are slaughtering for 4 milestones at a time...
Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
How many level 4s are you talking about? That makes a big difference in the scale of the encounter.
You can, of course, also use the class templates in the DMG to add PC powers to existing creatures -- there's a whole lot of surprises there -- PC powers tend to be pretty kickass.
But, IMO, your problem isn't really going to be solved by templates, I don't think. It's tough to challenge a very tactically astute group -- especially one that knows the books backwards and forwards.
Start looking for combinations of terrain and creature that packs a lot of punch -- and really use the environment to make life complicated for the party. One of my first TPKs with 4e was an encounter in which I combined (among other stuff) a howling hag and an elite daggerthorn briar. Combine the serious stopping power of the briar with an opponent that can push the PCs into the reach of it, and you've got a reciept for a whole lot of hurting.
The primary idea of a template is that it gives you a structure for creating a longer-lasting, more resilient and possibly more interesting adversary. The whole 4e philosophy, though, is that you don't need to worry about doing that sort of development "by the numbers". So long as you can sleep at night, and your players are having fun, you can pretty much do anything you want to them (so long as it stays fun).
This is one of the changes in the system that is hard to put into books -- it's sort of woven into the genetic code of the game -- there are guidelines for making your monsters up yourself -- some numeric guides for what they should do -- but what I really recommend that you do is stop looking for something you can plug in, and start thinking about what would be cool and surprising to your ubermensch.
One last thought -- one I forget from time to time as I'm desigining stuff for my groups. The PCs are supposed to win (just about) every single time -- and nailbiter combats actually stand out better if there are a handful of not so stressful combats surrounding them -- if every combat is a knife's edge from TPK, that probably means that players aren't having as much fun as they might -- there are cool abilities and fun things to do that players won't do in combats that are right out there on the bleeding edge. Slightly easier combat can give them license to be a bit more cinematic and wild from time to time.
-j
You can, of course, also use the class templates in the DMG to add PC powers to existing creatures -- there's a whole lot of surprises there -- PC powers tend to be pretty kickass.
But, IMO, your problem isn't really going to be solved by templates, I don't think. It's tough to challenge a very tactically astute group -- especially one that knows the books backwards and forwards.
Start looking for combinations of terrain and creature that packs a lot of punch -- and really use the environment to make life complicated for the party. One of my first TPKs with 4e was an encounter in which I combined (among other stuff) a howling hag and an elite daggerthorn briar. Combine the serious stopping power of the briar with an opponent that can push the PCs into the reach of it, and you've got a reciept for a whole lot of hurting.
The primary idea of a template is that it gives you a structure for creating a longer-lasting, more resilient and possibly more interesting adversary. The whole 4e philosophy, though, is that you don't need to worry about doing that sort of development "by the numbers". So long as you can sleep at night, and your players are having fun, you can pretty much do anything you want to them (so long as it stays fun).
This is one of the changes in the system that is hard to put into books -- it's sort of woven into the genetic code of the game -- there are guidelines for making your monsters up yourself -- some numeric guides for what they should do -- but what I really recommend that you do is stop looking for something you can plug in, and start thinking about what would be cool and surprising to your ubermensch.
One last thought -- one I forget from time to time as I'm desigining stuff for my groups. The PCs are supposed to win (just about) every single time -- and nailbiter combats actually stand out better if there are a handful of not so stressful combats surrounding them -- if every combat is a knife's edge from TPK, that probably means that players aren't having as much fun as they might -- there are cool abilities and fun things to do that players won't do in combats that are right out there on the bleeding edge. Slightly easier combat can give them license to be a bit more cinematic and wild from time to time.
-j
Out of maybe 60 encounters, the players have felt a "twinge" of fear only 3 times, and then it was only for a round or two each time...
One was chapel with an elite skullcleaver and an elite hexer, with some buddies... just a brutal fight, and probably the only time the group made a tactical mistake. They split the group to come into the chapel two ways to prevent runners, but in effect, they only split their effectiveness.
Second was a hallway fight with a library off of it, had hobgoblin archers lined up at far end of hallways, with minions being the cannon fodder to blockade PC's...
Last was a bed chamber, with hobgoblin warcasters and archers. The antechamber to the bedroom had a trap of whirling blades. Hobgoblin Warcasters kept pushing people back into it, while archers fired arrows galore.
I have 6 players, all lvl 4: Fighter, Swordmage, Cleric, Warlord, Rogue, Ranger
The module they are starting on now is into the ancient ruins under the city where there are catacombs, sewers, and a ruined temple that the city was built on top of. Enemies will include Goblins, Kruthiks, and Undead (both corporeal and incorporeal)
Any ideas?
One was chapel with an elite skullcleaver and an elite hexer, with some buddies... just a brutal fight, and probably the only time the group made a tactical mistake. They split the group to come into the chapel two ways to prevent runners, but in effect, they only split their effectiveness.
Second was a hallway fight with a library off of it, had hobgoblin archers lined up at far end of hallways, with minions being the cannon fodder to blockade PC's...
Last was a bed chamber, with hobgoblin warcasters and archers. The antechamber to the bedroom had a trap of whirling blades. Hobgoblin Warcasters kept pushing people back into it, while archers fired arrows galore.
I have 6 players, all lvl 4: Fighter, Swordmage, Cleric, Warlord, Rogue, Ranger
The module they are starting on now is into the ancient ruins under the city where there are catacombs, sewers, and a ruined temple that the city was built on top of. Enemies will include Goblins, Kruthiks, and Undead (both corporeal and incorporeal)
Any ideas?
Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
First, if you're designing these things yourself, think about using fewer Elites, if any. Your post got me thinking about Elites in encounter and monster design, and I sat down to look at the action economy (among other things) in a blog post here.
The Gist is this -- an Elite lasts twice as long, but doesn't get twice as many actions (with the exception of an action point, once). So, if you pit your part of 6 against an appropriate group of lvl 4 normals, those normals will get 6 attacks per round. Against Elites, the monsters get 3 attacks per round (assuming only standard actions are attacks).
If the party takes down one normal opponent per round, the group of 6 gets a grand total of 21 actions to attack the part, while the Elites get 12 (+3 maybe for action points to 15).
6 normals: 6 actions 1st round+ 5 second round , +4+3+2+1 = 21.
3 Elites: 3 actions first round+ 3 actions 2nd round+ 2 actions 3rd round +2+1+1=12, then +3 for action points = 15.
Remember that in most cases, whlie Elites built from templates have more options for attacks, they don't actually get more attacks, and their attacks per round are not more effective.
Also, a larger number of opponents makes it more likely that the monsters will be able to take advantage of lapses in tactics from your players -- many more opportunities to flank, to attack someone other than the defenders, etc.
Also, I'd look at throwing in some minions if you're really looking to make them sweat. The party doesn't have a controller -- which means they have limited access to AOE attacks. That means that it's going to take an actual action from a character to take out a minion, meanwhile all of those minions are out there getting in the party's way, providing flanks, causing damage, etc.
You cam dummy up your own minions quickly by taking a typical creature of that level, stripping out all special attacks, changing their damage to something like minimum damage. That's not perfect (I often decide the damage is a little low and add a point or two) but it works, and it's fast.
-j
The Gist is this -- an Elite lasts twice as long, but doesn't get twice as many actions (with the exception of an action point, once). So, if you pit your part of 6 against an appropriate group of lvl 4 normals, those normals will get 6 attacks per round. Against Elites, the monsters get 3 attacks per round (assuming only standard actions are attacks).
If the party takes down one normal opponent per round, the group of 6 gets a grand total of 21 actions to attack the part, while the Elites get 12 (+3 maybe for action points to 15).
6 normals: 6 actions 1st round+ 5 second round , +4+3+2+1 = 21.
3 Elites: 3 actions first round+ 3 actions 2nd round+ 2 actions 3rd round +2+1+1=12, then +3 for action points = 15.
Remember that in most cases, whlie Elites built from templates have more options for attacks, they don't actually get more attacks, and their attacks per round are not more effective.
Also, a larger number of opponents makes it more likely that the monsters will be able to take advantage of lapses in tactics from your players -- many more opportunities to flank, to attack someone other than the defenders, etc.
Also, I'd look at throwing in some minions if you're really looking to make them sweat. The party doesn't have a controller -- which means they have limited access to AOE attacks. That means that it's going to take an actual action from a character to take out a minion, meanwhile all of those minions are out there getting in the party's way, providing flanks, causing damage, etc.
You cam dummy up your own minions quickly by taking a typical creature of that level, stripping out all special attacks, changing their damage to something like minimum damage. That's not perfect (I often decide the damage is a little low and add a point or two) but it works, and it's fast.
-j
Sorry if I am posting a lot, but at work, and have not much to do, so I keep constant eye on forums to get as much assistance as possible =)
Elites usually get 1.5 attacks per round, or 3 per 2... reason is, most elites have a way of retaliating for different actions. Best case of this is the Savage Berserker (I believe is correct name) who makes a basic attack back against the person who attacked them. So, when placed against a fighter who is tanking them, they will get to attack the fighter 2 times (assuming their cool ability isn't a double attack anyway, like irontooth in Keep on the Shadowfell, which would actually result in 3 or 4 attacks per rd)
As for minions... ranger takes out 2, fighter takes out 2, swordmage takes out between 2 and 8 depending on how they work it and when I introduce the minions into the fight, as a general rule, my group takes out the 12-20 minions I use in fights within 1 or 2 rds, and then begin taking down 2 normals a round, if not more normals...
Oh, and reason I use elites every once in awhile... the highest AC in group is 24 I believe, average AC is around 22... All skills are covered with at least +11, avg plus to hit is around +9 or 10, without circumstantial bonuses from warlord or whatever...
so my normals almost never hit, need around 15 to hit most times, and do like 1d6 + 4... the enemies die without the players spending more than 1 healing surge most times...
Elites usually get 1.5 attacks per round, or 3 per 2... reason is, most elites have a way of retaliating for different actions. Best case of this is the Savage Berserker (I believe is correct name) who makes a basic attack back against the person who attacked them. So, when placed against a fighter who is tanking them, they will get to attack the fighter 2 times (assuming their cool ability isn't a double attack anyway, like irontooth in Keep on the Shadowfell, which would actually result in 3 or 4 attacks per rd)
As for minions... ranger takes out 2, fighter takes out 2, swordmage takes out between 2 and 8 depending on how they work it and when I introduce the minions into the fight, as a general rule, my group takes out the 12-20 minions I use in fights within 1 or 2 rds, and then begin taking down 2 normals a round, if not more normals...
Oh, and reason I use elites every once in awhile... the highest AC in group is 24 I believe, average AC is around 22... All skills are covered with at least +11, avg plus to hit is around +9 or 10, without circumstantial bonuses from warlord or whatever...
so my normals almost never hit, need around 15 to hit most times, and do like 1d6 + 4... the enemies die without the players spending more than 1 healing surge most times...
ValhallaGH
Explorer
... What the heck kind of character generation did you use, to get all these supermen in your campaign?
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