Where are the Mental Stat Bonuses?

Viktyr Gehrig

First Post
Pasus Nauran said:
Githyanki don't get a mental stat bonus. They get +2 Dex, +2 Con, and -2 Wis according to the XPH. Aasimar, Tiefling, and Githzerai are some of the few races I've found with mental stat bonuses and low LA (ie: +0-2).

I stand corrected.

Coerce your DM into allowing you to play a Fraal. They're detailed in d20 Future and the Menace Manual, and there is precedent for them existing in D&D worlds. +4 to all your mental stats and a couple of nifty psionic bonuses. Best of all, they have no racial hit dice and a level adjustment of zero; they're free.

It's the perfect race for, say, the Favored Soul/Warmage/Mystic Theurge that's dying to be made viable. Or the Druid/Sorceror/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge, which is just that much better.
 
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frankthedm

First Post
Every race recives Int, Wis, and Cha bonuses. It is in the PHB and perfectly legal for any game unless the DM says otherwise.

You can choose or randomly generate your character’s age. If you choose it, it must be at least the minimum age for the character’s race and class (see Table: Random Starting Ages). Your character’s minimum starting age is the adulthood age of his or her race plus the number of dice indicated in the entry corresponding to the character’s race and class on Table: Random Starting Ages.

At middle age, –1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At old age, –2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At venerable age, –3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

Now do you understand why most wizards are depicted so old ?
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
Scion said:
But I guess I'll just say that I am on the side of +2 to any single stat is ok for LA +0 races. It doesnt matter which of them, if someone feels that any one of them is ok for LA +0 then they all are. All or nothing ;)
Except that by your own admission not all stats are of equal value. If all stats are ever made of equal value (nudge nudge charisma) then I could accept all stats being treated evenly; until that edition however, I'll stick to the core rules status quo.
 

Scion

First Post
FreeTheSlaves said:
Except that by your own admission not all stats are of equal value.

All stats are not equal to each character, but stats in general when taken in their best place are all roughly equal.

The charisma based skills can be 'incredibly' and 'horribly' powerful.

Plus, there are classes like the paladin granting the cha bonus to all saves and expending turn attempts (extras gained through extra charisma) to get some pretty impressive abilities for awhile.

Each stat when put into its most powerful position all have roughly equal high end power, which really seems to be where the balance is supposed to lie.

Just because it can be used as a dump stat for so many classes is immaterial in the grand scheme ;)
 

domino

First Post
All stats can be powerful, or not, depending on the build.

Trying to make Charisma as important to a barbarian thug as Strength, or Strength as important as Intelligence to a wizard is stupid.

Making Charisma as important to a bard as strength is to a fighter, on the other hand, IS smart, and is more or less how things work out.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
Blood Jester said:
I don't understant this argument when it is explicitly stated that bonuses to stats such as Strength are more powerful than bonuses to stats like Charisma.

DM's are advised against considering a -2 to Int to be a balance to a +2 to Str. (Although they seem ok with -2 to Str as a balnace to +2 Int.)

You need to understand that any given bonus implicitly implies a certain class to be taken that is optimal: str for barbarian, cha for sorcerer, etc...

Then you need to look at the corresponding penalty & how it applies to this class choice: "+2 str for a barbarian & has a -2 to cha, um well that is just my intimidate skill, I'll take this!" Clearly a single penalty to charisma is not a balance in itself to a bonus to str; adding a -2 penalty to int is balancing for the fighter (with their tiny 2 skill points per level) but leaves ranger & barbarian as reasonably good options, barbarian especially because as mentioned it almost has no use for charisma & has a decent # of skill points (4) anyway.

Remember to always look at the 'optimal build', if you balance a race by a suboptimal build then you are setting up your game to be dominated by this race as everyone picks it: CR, player choice & thus balance all get put under pressure creating a compounding state of imbalances.

A little secret courtesy of Andy Collins & SKR, the core races are supposed to be the first choice of players. Core in this respect implies that these races a good deal to pick over any non-core race. New +0ECL races like in Eberron are built favourably like this too, so as to make them 'core' within their logical setting. All core races other than human & half elf come hardwired with their favoured class in mind, they are supposed to make good versions of their favoured class (with the elf being getting hard done by admittedly).

So then if we now consider the mental boost stat boost we can confidently state that this race will likely be a paladin, sorcerer, bard, wizard, monk or cleric. What then will balance this? As Scion alluded to, a penalty to dex is a perfect balance to almost any bonus but will likely make the race default to a (heavily armoured) cleric unless the bonus is intelligence.

The point I am trying to make is that a +2 here does not automatically balance with a -2 there in theory & in practice; there are many subtleties that need to be put into context with what the race is supposed to be like. Yes there is a table in the dmg to balance racial bonuses but just like a certain magic item table, if followed slavishly, it will kill your campaign. Don't believe me? Well lurk in the "what's a dm to do?" WotC forums for a while.
 

Scion

First Post
FreeTheSlaves said:
The point I am trying to make is that a +2 here does not automatically balance with a -2 there in theory & in practice

Actually, I think that in a properly run campaign a +2 to 'any' stat can very well be balanced in a race with a -2 in 'any' stat.

Sure, there are some combinations which will appear to be better for one reason or another, but there will be other factors to balance out the bonus.

Some races are simply built to do certain things better than anyone else and do something else worse than anything else.

Going by the +2 str/-2 cha guy above he will be worse in many social situations, will have a harder time in a number of classes (thereby limiting his options overall), and will be more susceptible to a few different types of charisma damaging attacks.


It can be difficult at times, but then lots of things in the game can be so ;) It just takes some finessing on occasion. Not really anymore than other parts.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
Scion said:
All stats are not equal to each character, but stats in general when taken in their best place are all roughly equal.

The charisma based skills can be 'incredibly' and 'horribly' powerful.
Ok, a semi-related question: would the standard human be equal in balance to a +2str/-2cha human (both +0 overall)?

Scion said:
Plus, there are classes like the paladin granting the cha bonus to all saves and expending turn attempts (extras gained through extra charisma) to get some pretty impressive abilities for awhile.

Each stat when put into its most powerful position all have roughly equal high end power, which really seems to be where the balance is supposed to lie.

Just because it can be used as a dump stat for so many classes is immaterial in the grand scheme ;)
Getting off topic but I believe 1 divine feat at least is overpowered, but putting aside their non-core nature I agree in general that a mental bonus can provide better than minimal benefit to a physical class, and vice versa.

I think your last sentence only tells (slightly over) half the story. If we exclude all other racial qualities other than stat bonuses; the corresponding placement of the racial penalty into what will become the 'dump stat' is (imho, almost as) equally important to determine the power of the bonus. My example of choice would probably be a bonus to str with a penalty to con, the penalty has an impact on how optimal the bonus is; in this case probably favouring a mighty bow archer build.
 

FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
Scion said:
Actually, I think that in a properly run campaign a +2 to 'any' stat can very well be balanced in a race with a -2 in 'any' stat.
The problem with this statement is that it is placing the onus back on the dm to balance the imbalance rather than hardcoding balance within the system. I totally agree that good players & dm can make lemonade from lemons, we went 10 years with 2nd edition did we not??;)

Within my campaign I've stacked the game to give greater favour to charisma skills; doing things like making adventure plots advance with gather info checks & key personalities not divulging essential information without successful diplomacy/intimidate checks (& let the players know they need to do this!).

I really wish all stats were equal overall, but without tweaking, my gaming experience tells me otherwise. :(
 

irdeggman

First Post
This is what we did for the Birthright Campaign Setting (BRCS) at Birthright.net. It is the Official 3.5 info currently and was snctioned (i.e., voted on) by the fans on the site.

Dwarves, Cerilian
Dwarves lived in the mountains of Cerilia long before humans came to the land. Over the years, the dwarven holds have chosen a defensive strategy, fortifying their approaches and retreating to their cities under the mountains whenever threatened. Dwarves have a fierce hatred of orogs, the result of uncounted wars fought under the earth.

The typical dwarf stands about 4’ to 4’6” in height, with an exceptionally stocky build and thick, sturdy bones. Dwarves are creatures of stone, the children of the mountains, and their bodies are twice as dense as those of other creatures; in this respect they're closely related to stone giants. Dwarves often weigh as much as 250 to 300 pounds despite their size. A dwarf's skin is gray, stony, and cold to the touch. All dwarves have eyes that are dark as jet and their hair and beards are black or dark gray in color and normally cropped short.

The dwarves of Cerilia usually adhere to friendly neutrality; thus they are on good terms with most other races, including the elves. They're masterful craftsmen and traders; dwarven caravans roam through Cerilia laden with goods. Dwarven arms and armor are the best in Cerilia and Dwarven mercenaries are highly prized. In the privacy of their own homes, the dwarves of Cerilia are hardly the dour and grim sentinels that they are first appear. Though they still have the responsibility of keeping the orogish population in check under the mountains, their lives are filled with merriment and gaiety.

Dwarven kingdoms are generally organized around the clan, and clan members are expected to be loyal to their clan first and king second. The clan leaders, in turn, first serve their people and swear fealty to the dwarven king. The dwarven king must therefore be an adept negotiator and a shrewd politician to keep his people together.

Dwarves learn the arts of war at an early age, for they see their duty as containing the orogs in the caverns under the mountains. The orogs have, strangely, grown ever more mighty in their years of confinement, and the dwarves have had become that much better to deal with the orogish menace. It is partly for this reason that they prefer not to deal with outsiders - visitors distract the sentries.

In addition to being skilled fighters, the dwarves of Cerilia are also excellent miners. Each dwarf clan tends to specialize in a certain sort of mining, so that one clan searches out gems, while another specializes in ores. The clans within a kingdom tend to complement one another, so no clan is left with a useless skill. Dwarves are the most technologically advanced race of Cerilia; their level of technology is roughly equivalent to the historical cultures during the close of the Renaissance period.

Racial Abilities: Cerilian dwarves have the following racial traits:
• +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity.

• Medium-size (4’ to 4’6” tall); base speed of 20 feet. However, dwarves can move this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Although they can function without light, Cerilian dwarves prefer illumination, and require it to perform most fine tasks.

• Stonecunning: +2 racial bonus to notice unusual stonework; automatically attempt to search when within 10 feet of unusual stonework, trapfinding (as rogue) for stonework traps only. A dwarf can also sense their approximate depth underground.

• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.

• Stability: Dwarves gains a +4 bonus on ability checks to resist bull rush and trip when standing on firm ground.

• +2 racial bonus on saves vs. poison, spells, and spell-like effects.

• +2 dodge bonus to AC against orogs and ogres.

• +2 racial bonus to appraise and craft checks related to stone and metal objects.

• Increased Density: A dwarf's dense body provides DR 5/slashing or piercing. Dwarves suffer a -4 penalty to swim and tumble checks. Because Cerilian dwarves are denser than the Player’s Handbook dwarf, when using the random method of determining height and weight per the Player’s Handbook, add 80 lbs to the base weight for both male and female dwarves.

• Automatic Language: Karamhul (KARA-mool). Bonus Languages: Sidhelien, Orog, Ogrish, or any cultural human dialect (Anuirean, Basarji, Low Brecht, High Brecht, Rjuven, or Vos).

• Favored Class: Fighter.

Variant: Adjusting damage reduction
In lieu of DR 5/slashing or piercing, dwarves receive DR 1+Con bonus/slashing or piercing. What this does is provide a sliding scale that has hardier dwarves having greater resistance to damage.

Elves, Cerilian (Sidhelien)

There is only one race of Cerilian elves; they call themselves the Sidhelien (SHEE-lin). The Sidhelien hold court in deep, mist-wreathed vales in the darkest heart of the ancient Cerilian forests. The elves of Cerilia are a graceful but reclusive race, suspicious of humankind. Early in Cerilia's history they contested human settlement of Cerilia's vast forests, and a strong current of ill will towards the human nations still runs strong in the elven woods.

Elves stand as tall as humans, but they're far more slender and graceful. Most average between 5’6” and 6’ in height, but weigh only 120 to 140 pounds. They are pale, with fair skin and dark hair, and their features are exquisitely formed. Elves possess an unearthly beauty, and their perfect voices can hold a mortal spellbound. Unfortunately, elves are very conscious of their perceived superiority and treat others with coldness or condescension.

Cerilian elves are creatures of faerie and starlight, gifted with immortality and powers of mind and body beyond those of humankind. They're neither a force for good nor a force for evil; an elven wood can be perilous for human travelers, but even more so for goblinoids or gnolls. The elven heart is unfathomable to mortals; they're moved to wild delight, dark melancholy, or burning rage with the only the slightest of causes. More than anything else, elves are unpredictable doing what pleases them from one moment to the next.

Elves resist aging and normal disease – only magical diseases such as lycanthrope can harm them. They cannot see in total darkness, but can see by starlight or moonlight as well as a human sees by daylight. Elves don't need to sleep, but they can become physically exhausted and must rest quietly, studying spells or standing watch, for about as long as a human needs to sleep. Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface.

The elves of Cerilia are not the run-of-the-mill elves that most might expect. These elves, though civilized enough that their music can bring tears to the eyes of even the roughest forester, also have a core of savagery that permeates their being. Having lived with the brutal humanoids for thousands of years, the elves have had to learn to deal harshly with those who oppose them. Besides, they've watched everything they built over the past millennia come crashing down around them with the arrival of the humans such a short time (about two elven generations) ago.

As such, they harbor deep hatred in their collective breast for those who've dispossessed them. This extends to humans or humanoids, or whoever stands in the way of the elven dominion. However, there are elves who take a more rational view to the whole thing, seeing the humans as the next step and a needed catalyst for change. These elves look to the humans for ways to improve the elven kingdoms, to teach the elves the realities of living in modern Cerilia.

The Elven Court has fractured from a single large kingdom into many small ones, just as the human Empire has shattered. Every elven settlement now has its own version of the Elven Court, but none of them can match the glories of the original. The elves hope to reunite the elven lands to recapture the beauty and grace of the past. Even so, elves remain one of the most technologically advanced races of Cerilia; their level of technology is roughly equivalent to that of historic cultures during of the late Renaissance period.

The type of elven ruler varies from court to court, depending on what the elves of that nation value. The elves of Tuarhievel favor warriors, while those of the Sielwode prefer mages as their leader. Of course, each court prefers its type of leader over all others. If elves are to reconcile, they must first set aside these differences.

When the humans began to force the elves from their ancestral homes, the elven leaders began the gheallie Sidhe, or Hunt of the Elves. Elven knights roamed the lands held by the elves, slaying whatever humans they found trespassing in their borders. Most elven lands have long since called a cease to this hunt, but individual elves and some entire elven nations continue the battle to this day.

The elves are aware that gods exist, but they do not pay homage to them. Particularly after their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the elves have been adamant in their refusal to worship human gods. To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual. The path that an elf takes is a decision that only he or she can make. So strong is this belief that if an elf chooses to worship one of the human gods, so be it. The only restriction placed upon such rare individuals is that they not discuss their religious ideologies within elven realms.

Racial Abilities: Cerilian elves have the following racial traits:

• +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength, -2 Constitution.

• Medium-size (5’6” to 6” tall); base speed of 30 feet.

• Immunity to magic sleep spells and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment effects.

• Low-light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, torchlight, or other conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. [Cerilian elves do not gain the automatic search check within 5’ that standard Player’s Handbook elves receive.]

• Infamous reputation: Elves are infamous for pursuing campaigns against entire races, including dwarves, gnolls, goblins, and even humans in many regions (including most of Anuire). Elves receive a -4 racial penalty to Diplomacy, a -4 racial penalty to Gather Information, and a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate in areas where they have an infamous reputation.

• Weapon Proficiency: Cerilian Elves receive Martial Weapon Proficiency with longsword, shortbow, and longbow.

• Timeless: Gifted with near immortality, elves do not suffer the ravages of time and are thus immune to aging attacks and normal (but not supernatural) disease. An adult elf’s age has no effect on her physical or mental ability scores. Because of this, modify the random starting age and aging effects’ tables in the Player’s Handbook to remove mention of starting age or aging (years have no meaning to an ageless race) effects for Cerilian elves. Elves do not need sleep, but they can become physically exhausted. Instead of sleep an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit as that a human does for 8 hours of sleep.

• Nature Stride: Elves may move through natural thorns, overgrown areas, heavy snow, soft sand, a treacherous mountain or similar natural terrain at their normal movement rate and without suffering damage or penalty.

• Alignment Restriction: Unpredictable and fey, Cerilian elves must follow a non-lawful alignment.

• Automatic Language: Sidhelien. Bonus Languages: Any.

• Favored Class: Any one arcane spell casting class.

Variant: Elven nature magic affinity

Due to their affinity with nature elves (and half-elves when raised by elves) can add the following spells to any arcane casting spell list they have: 0-Level: Create Water; 1st-Level: Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Goodberry, Hide from Animals, Longstrider, Magic Fang, Magic Stone, Pass without Trace, Shillelagh; 2nd-Level: Animal Messenger, Barkskin, Hold Animal, Reduce Animal, Soften Earth and Stone, Tree Shape, Warp Wood, Wood Shape; 3rd-Level: Diminish Plants, Dominate Animal, Magic Fang, Greater, Meld into Stone, Plant Growth, Quench, Snare, Spike Growth, Wind Walk, 4th-Level: Air Walk, Antiplant Shell, Command Plants, Giant Vermin, Spike Stones; 5th-Level: Awaken, Commune with Nature, Control Winds, Tree Stride, Wall of Thorns; 6th-Level: Ironwood, Liveoak, Repel Wood, Spellstaff, Stone Tell, Transport via Plants; 7th-Level: Animate Plants, Changestaff, Transmute Metal to Wood, Wind Walk; 8th-Level: Animal Shapes, Control Plants, Repel Metal or Stone; 9th-Level: Shambler.

This does not provide any bonus spells it only adds more options to arcane spellcasting classes for elves. The spells are added to the appropriate spell list at the spell level indicated.
 

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