Where are the Mental Stat Bonuses?

[Krelios]

I quoted the relevant part, since it was just above anyone could read the rest.

Also, you didnt use the word 'some', you said 'in general' which implies 'most' or 'the majority' or even 'all'.

Actually, apparently you didn't read my post...

In general, the designers (i.e., WotC) and a fair portion of the community (I hesitate to say, "majority," without actual numbers) feel that bonuses to mental stats are worth more than bonuses to physical stats.

My point was the evidence is there, yes it might be in contradiction with what the DMG suggests, but so are their magic items and a fair number of other things. It's okay to provide guidelines, but what really matters are actual cases--in the case of mental bonus LA 0 casters, there are so few that it must be a purposeful decision. You can't have as many published races as WotC does and "accidentally" miss a race with mental bonuses at +0 LA. The grey elf is the noted exception to the rule, but it is exactly that--an exception.

 

[Scion]

The problem with this statement is that it is placing the onus back on the dm to balance the imbalance rather than hardcoding balance within the system.

It already 'is' hardcoded into the system. However, the dm can put emphasis on any one part of the system and not others.

That is why we have so many threads that think certain things are horribly unbalanced in the system, even when they are balanced if you play by the rules.

The onus is 'always' on the dm to make things balanced.

If the dm never uses any sort of social skills at all, ever then that will favor certain character types and certain othes will be completely useless. In this sort of campaign cha will be a dump stat for pretty much everyone who cant get a straight mechanical combat benefit. the -2 to cha will generally go unnoticed (but not always, as I said above with the poison and such). The +2 to str might be godly (depending on character type).

If the dm never has any combat and every situation is completely social then again there will be characters on both sides of the fence. In this sort of campaign str may very well be a dump stat. After all, it is basically never used. Here the -2 to str that certain races get will be unimportant whereas the +2 to cha will be the best thing 'ever'.


Somewhere in the middle we get a good balance where each is a bonus at certain times and the penalty is felt at others.

I really wish all stats were equal overall, but without tweaking, my gaming experience tells me otherwise.

In my experience they are as balanced as the dm makes them, just like any class, feat, or other item in the game.

Note that depending on the game different things can be done to shore up whatever weaknesses there are.

Such as in mine I make the social skills slightly harder to use but at the same time I make cha more important by giving it an extra ability.

Overall in my campaign all stats are important, and a penalty in any of them will be felt at some point.

But then in my last campaign I didnt add in the extra touch to cha, made social skills work as they do in the core, and those who thought to make cha a dump stat had.. difficulties.. at a few points in the game. One of them actually died because of it.

It is just all about the dm playing all sides of the field instead of focusing on one item

 

[Scion]

Actually, apparently you didn't read my post...

sure I did, but given where the parenthesis were it seemed like they were refering to only the part that they were next to and not the whole thing. Especially with the 'in general' part at the beginning.

So it read something like this:
'Everyone/Most at wotc and a fair portion of the community (though I hesistate to say a majority)...'

Hence my comments. It seems odd to say 'many/most/all' and then say 'but not necissarily a majority', they are highly contradictory. So I assumed you meant one for the first and the other for the second, as that is the only way that makes sense.

My point was the evidence is there, yes it might be in contradiction with what the DMG suggests, but so are their magic items and a fair number of other things.

Magic items are in contradiction? I know that not all follow the general 'guidelines', but since those are said to be 'guidelines' and that you should 'compare to item that already exist first' I dont see how they are breaking any rules.

It's okay to provide guidelines, but what really matters are actual cases--in the case of mental bonus LA 0 casters, there are so few that it must be a purposeful decision. You can't have as many published races as WotC does and "accidentally" miss a race with mental bonuses at +0 LA. The grey elf is the noted exception to the rule, but it is exactly that--an exception.

No, at least one designer has said why. He said that it was because they made a mistake in the core by not giving the elves a +2 int to begin with and so didnt want to make any other races that they made be automatically 'better' than the elf at being a wizard.

Which of course I say is nonsense. Having the +2 to dex is a 'huge' benefit to many caster types anyway. Having a +2 int is very comparable to that.

Sure, each provides a different 'kind' of bonus and one could argue that each is better for a specific case, but overall I feel that they are pretty equal.

But then +2 dex doesnt really push 'spellcaster', it is merely just as good in a number of ways.

Still though, at some point they will either correct this mistake or figure out a different way around it. I dont see any reason at all why there cant be a race out there which is more suited to being a wizard than the elf. After all, the elves descriptive text seems to make them much more of a sorc anyway



It certainly isnt 'overpowered' to allow + mental stat races at LA +0 in my experience. I have seen them in action a few different times, along with their nonmenta l stat counterparts (although since the nons are more numerous I have seen the nons more often). They each had their different strengths and that was all.

 

[Staffan]

All stats can be powerful, or not, depending on the build.

Trying to make Charisma as important to a barbarian thug as Strength, or Strength as important as Intelligence to a wizard is stupid.

Making Charisma as important to a bard as strength is to a fighter, on the other hand, IS smart, and is more or less how things work out.

The thing is, each stat has a number of classes that need it to be high. However, some stats can be ignored by some classes, and some stats have use for all classes.

Strength: Melee-based classes have use for the combat bonuses. All classes have use of carrying capacity, though with bags of holding you can carry a lot of gear with only a moderate strength - hard to get by with a really low one, though.

Dexterity: Ranged attack is only useful for characters that want to attack from a distance. Skill bonuses are only useful for those classes that use those skills. AC, Initiative, and Reflex saves are important for everyone.

Constitution: No-one wants to have sucky hp and Fortitude saves.

Intelligence: Spellcasting bonuses are only useful to wizards and psions. Skill bonuses can be ignored by many classes. Skill points are useful for everyone, but of course some have more use for them than others.

Wisdom: Again, spellcasting bonuses are only useful for divine spellcasters and psychic warriors. Wisdom skill bonuses are slightly more generically useful than Intelligence skill bonuses, since everyone wants perception skills. But the biggie for generic usefulness is the Will save - paradoxically, most of the classes that want to use Wis for spellcasting already have good Will saves and don't need Wis as much for that.

Charisma: Like the other mental stats, spellcasting bonuses that are only useful for bards, sorcerers, and wilders. Some classes (notably paladins, but to a lesser extent clerics) have class abilities that rely on Charisma. Skill bonuses are only useful for those who want to get good social skills. As for generic usefulness... nothing.

This is why Charisma is generally the dump-stat of choice. All other stats have something to give to every character: encumbrance, saves, skill points, hp. But a high Charisma doesn't help the fighter much, if at all.

I'd say that if you rank stats by their generic usefulness (meaning, useful to someone who doesn't go out of their way to make it useful) they come in this order: Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Str, Cha. This then becomes somewhat skewed by the number of classes that do go out of their way to make Strength useful, so Strength is valued more highly than that ranking would make it appear.