Where are the really small creatures?

[Jdvn1]

My vote's on the demilich, at 29

All right, you got me. The one from the ELH. How about after that? How about a fine creature that would be a challenge for an 8th level party? Or a 12th level party?

 

[frankthedm]

How do you CR a 1 HP critter with +30-40 to hide and a bite that goes around armor that deals 1d4 STR primary poison damage, 1d4 days exhausted secondary poison damage?

 

[Jolly Giant]

Other than swarms, are there any monsters in MM I-IV that are diminuative or fine?

There's a diminutive dragon in Vikings D20...

 

[Jdvn1]

Of those? Demilich, obviously.

I would agree with you. The trick is, of course, comming up with the apropriate inspiration... how do you make something so small, so powerful?

Small doesn't mean weak--though bigger things look more intimidating.

 

[Henrix]

The recommended hit dice per size makes monsters a bit larger in D&D3.x than in previous incarnations of the game/other RPGs. Perhaps those should be relaxed a little bit more.

 

[Jolly Giant]

The recommended hit dice per size makes monsters a bit larger in D&D3.x than in previous incarnations of the game/other RPGs. Perhaps those should be relaxed a little bit more.

Recommended is the key word here. It's only a guideline. There's no rule says you can't make a fine creature with 10 billion HD.

 

[WizarDru]

How do you CR a 1 HP critter with +30-40 to hide and a bite that goes around armor that deals 1d4 STR primary poison damage, 1d4 days exhausted secondary poison damage?

You start by figuring out the DCs of it's poison, it's BAB and AC and then compare it to existing creatures and get generate a rough number that can be further refined by playtesting.

I mean if it's got a BAB of +0, an AC of 12 and the DCs are 10 (including size mod), then it doesn't matter if it has 45 hit points...it's CR still isn't going to be that high. Toss it against a giant bee and a hellwasp swarm, for example, and see what happens.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That is a great idea. A diminutive demon that hides in your house and climbs up onto peoples' beds to give them bad dreams, making them Exhausted or Fatigued when they wake up. Maybe they enter dreams, too. Hm....

Depressingly, Ravenloft D20 had two such undead, but they were both medium incorporeals instead of one being a tiny fiend.

 

[Echohawk]

All right, you got me. The one from the ELH. How about after that? How about a fine creature that would be a challenge for an 8th level party? Or a 12th level party?

The Puppeteer takes second place with a CR of 1. The familiars from Tome and Blood don't have CRs listed, but here are the rest:

Fine
Hairy Spider (CR 1/2)
Hoard Scarab (CR 1/2)
Puppeteer (CR 1)

Diminutive
Bat (CR 1/10)
Demilich (CR 29)
Fiendish Familiar (CR 1/8)
Homonculus, Expeditious Messenger (CR 1/3)
Least Spirit Centipede (CR 1/2)
Psicrystal (CR 0)
Toad (CR 1/10)

As far as a challenge for an 8th party goes, you're all out of luck for Fine creatures. If you're willing to go slightly larger though, then you might want to take a look at the Gray Shiver on page 46 of Dragon #343, which is a CR 9 Diminutive Magical Beast.

For a 12th-level party, you'll have to use multiple Gray Shivers, or resort to using "unofficial" updates of creatures from earlier editions, such as this CR 14 Guardian Hand or this CR 11 Druj (both Diminutive).

 

[Echohawk]

Crikey, aren't there a bunch of faerie-type creatures we're forgetting here, or all they all classified as small? Like Sylphs and Sprites and such. Seems like Fiend Folio had a few too. If not, that seems a major omission, because of all the fantasy literature and mythological references to tiny faeries.

Sylphs are Small, as are most kinds of Sprites (although the Atomie (Tome of Horrors) and the Grig are Tiny).

There are a handful of Fine Fey in the Creature Catalogue, including the Bramble, the Flitterling and the Gorse. There are also some Diminutive Fey in various souces, including the Killmoulis in Tome of Horrors, the Shadovig in Dragon #299 and the Spark in Dragon #304.

But most Fey are Tiny, Small or larger.