Where Has All the Magic Gone?

[Doug McCrae]

If there is no wonder, and no mystery it isn't magic, it's science with newts and circles instead of cogs and circuits. If I want to play with science I don't need an RPG, I have a garage and a soldering iron.

If you don't want magic in your game, you shouldn't be playing a fantasy RPG. Period. Play a SF game, play a modern day game, play a historical game, play an alternate historical game where you explore the ramifications of a chinese expedition introducing horses and gunpowder to south america before the spainiards arrive.

Do not however whine that a fantasy game has magic in it, because that is the whole freaking point!

There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.

Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.

 

[Nagol]

There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.

Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.

The other option is to damage the reliability of magic through the inclusion of a random element a la Wild Magic or Deadlands' playing card draw.

The player knows the game mechanism, but cannot make accurate predictions as to the final result.

 

[nightwyrm]

Holy thread necromancy!!

 

[Doug McCrae]

Or have no rules for magic items and spells, only mundane activities. This would be the precise opposite of old school D&D which, bizarrely, precisely delineates magic while such activities as climbing trees and swimming in the village pond are left in the realm of eldritch mystery.

Or ban magic users. Pretty much the way Pendragon handles it, all the PCs are knights. Or ban magic users and magic items. But what would be the fun in that?

 

[Doug McCrae]

The way D&D handles magic as mystery is to make only the very high end stuff mysterious - artefacts, bizarre 10th level spells that were lost in ages gone. So magic (in the D&D sense) only becomes magic (in the sense of mysterious) when it's really powerful. The low end stuff, like +1 swords and magic missile spells? Just another kind of technology.

 

[Jack7]

There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.

Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.

The other option is to damage the reliability of magic through the inclusion of a random element a la Wild Magic or Deadlands' playing card draw.

The player knows the game mechanism, but cannot make accurate predictions as to the final result.

The way D&D handles magic as mystery is to make only the very high end stuff mysterious - artefacts, bizarre 10th level spells that were lost in ages gone. So magic (in the D&D sense) only becomes magic (in the sense of mysterious) when it's really powerful. The low end stuff, like +1 swords and magic missile spells? Just another kind of technology.

That's an interesting set of observations Doug and Nagol.

Personally I think it is based on the following technique(s) of displaying magic as a game concept in D&D. With artifacts and relics and so forth you have so many different kinds of magical effects that can be displayed that one has a hard time "guessing or knowing" what effect the item will manifest next.

That is to say high level magic items have a wide option choice of magical effects and displays, which adds to the mystery of the manifestation. It is not a simple one lever-one effect operation.

Simple magical items, +1 swords and so forth, can't project that element of "the unknown or mysterious." Not with that system anyway. It's like you say, low magic is a simple mechanical or technological operation. It only usually does one simple thing, like an extremely simple machine.

I think you can change that by making low level magical items fluctuate in what they do, or by changing the way they "present helves" on occasion. They would still do mild things, by comparison to high level magic, but only one thing at a time, yet also various or changing things.

But I think you made a good observation and I like the idea of the paradox of magical-technology in D&D. I think it can be fixed, or at least changed, but I like the point.

 

[Set]

Nice try. The wand of fire from 1e could do burning hands, fireball, pyrotechnics, and wall of fire. Much more fun than any old wand of fireballs. A lot of 1e stuff was way more versatile than later editions.

And the generic flavorless '+1 sword' shed light like a torch and had a chance to be sentient and other powers.

Yeah, straw men meant to ridicule the OP aside, some of the old-school items like the Rod of Lordly Might and the Decanter of Endless Water did seem to be a bit more interesting than some of the newer Magic Item Compendium items that do this spell X times / day as a swift action.

 

[Nifft]

Okay, it's time we came clean here.

The magic that used to be found in all games has been steadily acquired by a handful of wealthy individuals, and now only makes its way into the games of the privileged elite. The rest of you just get boring cruft like "+1 sword"s.

This is just one reason why Sepulchrave II's game is better than yours. His group bought call options on magic early.

"Your childhood memories will be auctioned off next week", -- N

 

[Mournblade94]

Not every person who picks up the game wants Mystery and Wonder. And it is easier for a DM who wants it to put it back than it is for a DM who doesn't to remove it.

Then why are they playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons? It is full of mystery and wonder.

Isn't that the point of playing it?

 

[Mallus]

Then why are they playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons? It is full of mystery and wonder.

It's also full of dull-and-functional wahoo like Magic Missile and a longsword +1

Isn't that the point of playing it?

Not exactly.