Where's the save for 'Harm' spell?

[IceBear]

Well, I'm of the wait and see camp. It sure does look superpowerful on paper, but then so do a lot of things in 3E and yet they aren't in practice.

I do have a standing house rule that harm will become a Will Save for 1/2 damage (like the rest of the inflict spells) should it become a problem in the campaign. I did this because a few of the designers also feel that the spell is too powerful as written and I take their opinions seriously.

But, since we don't play high levels often and I do try to keep house rules to a bare minimum I haven't offically changed the rules until I see it used in action.

IceBear

 

[Piratecat]

I've house ruled Harm myself, as a "will save or Inflict Critical Wound damage," as Monte Cook once recommended. I didn't do this to protect the dragons and assorted bad guys... are you kidding? They're a dime a dozen.

I did it to protect the PCs.

We're playing at high levels. The PCs are 14th-18th level, and we've been playing 3e now since November 1999. I can have any number of bad-guy NPCs wielding Harm, in spell or scroll form. If there's no save, all one of them has to do is touch attack a PC with one, once, and follow up with another attack or magical damage. Bingo, dead PC. I'm not opposed to killing PCs, but I'd prefer there to be a bit excitement to it.

Any "near-instant death" spell is more likely to hurt the PCs than help them in the long run. Sagiro, for instance, has made Disintegrate affect only non-living objects; he's of the opinion that a spell of that level shouldn't negate Raising and Resurrection, and I'm not entirely sure I disagree with him.

Hitting a high level PC with Harm DOES necessitate a saving throw, by the way - a DC 15 fortitude save for massive damage or death! Thus, if the spell remains merely a touch attack, it packs a double whammy that I don't think is appropriate for a spell of that level.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

Our house rule was just to change the casting time to "1 full round". That allows for possible interruptions (unless hasted) and so anyone who gets hit by it rather deserves it.

On a similar note, we've made coup-de-gras take "1 full round" as well. Otherwise our DM would have to dumb down the bad guys too much to avoid mass-PC death. Both rules seem to work fairly well; at least for us.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I love the "NPCs can do it too, so it's balanced!" point.

If that makes it balanced, then there can be no such thing as a spell that it too powerful.

Let's just make a level 0 spell that allows the caster to think about an opponent, and said opponent dies. It must be balanced, because the NPCs can use it too!

And lets see, the real point of the game is to have fun. The players are having a blast making short work of the big, well thought out villian that the DM spent hours making. The DM isn't having any fun. So the DM isn't having any fun, and after a while the players get bored with it too. Or the players besides the cleric get tired of the cleric doing all the work and stealing the spotlight all the time.

Lets fix it by killing the party!! Yeah, that's the way to go!!

--Fanatic Spikey

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I've house ruled Harm myself, as a "will save or Inflict Critical Wound damage," as Monte Cook once recommended.

The only problem with that is you want low HP creatures to MAKE their save because that might kill them outright. Or do they fail their save on purpose?

I prefer the save for reduction to half of current HP method myself.

--Grey Houser Spikey

 

[humanist05]

Well, I'm of the wait and see camp. It sure does look superpowerful on paper, but then so do a lot of things in 3E and yet they aren't in practice.

*laugh* The thing is, I've seen it used many times in action and it DOES inbalance things. I've seen a party with a Harm spell take out a Storm Giant (with Touch AC of 10!) and another take out a Frost worm (with a Touch AC of 8!), all in one battle!!

In one battle (I was in a playtesting game for a system to be announced later this year... ;-)), a party of 6 PCs (level 13 average) took out an Ancient Brass Dragon. Touch AC of 8!!! I think the poster that mentioned how hard it is to touch a dragon is making it sounds PHENOMONALLY difficult. It isn't, believe me! Fighters do it all the time... The brass dragon in question had 392 hit points. It failed it's magic resistant save (which was 28). It may have made it save (but Harm doesn't allow one-- ;-) It saves were FOR. +25, REF.+20, WILL +23) It was reduced to THREE (3)... count them... 3!!! hit points in one fell swoop. Touching a dragon is hardly difficult, my friends. :-(

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

If harm has a save, you might as well use slay living. A failed save kills the victim outright!

Personnaly I'd just cap the amount of damage.

I'll have to make that call soon enough, My PCs are almost level 11 and are tough enough to face the occasional 11th level cleric.

 

[pontus]

If harm has a save, you might as well use slay living. A failed save kills the victim outright!

That depends on what save you assign to Harm. If you use a Will save like the Inflict spells do, then Harm remains useful for picking off tough but weak minded creatures like giants and Fighters that would probably make their Fort save against Slay living.

 

[Kraedin]

Creeping Doom

For balance against PC's, Creeping Doom is far worse. 25 foot + 5/2 lvls range, radius, and instant death, no save, no SR. If they PC's are clustered, you can take out several at once. And yet, no DM complains about this spell, because it's FAR more usful in the hands of NPCs than PCs. After all, anything with any damage reduction is unaffected. NPCs often have damage reduction. PCs, with the exception of Barbarians, never do. The real problem some DMs have with Harm is that they see DnD as a DM vs. the PCs game, they are unconcered with vauge concepts of game balance. Blantant power gaming, metagaming, and outright cheating are all perfectly acceptable DM strategies, but grave and unwholesome sins for a player. Harm is balanced. Skilled DMs are not going to have a problem with it. Others might.

 

[Orco42]

Re: Creeping Doom

For balance against PC's, Creeping Doom is far worse. 25 foot + 5/2 lvls range, radius, and instant death, no save, no SR

Ooh... another fun spell. Again I think both are fine but can be abused.

This could get nasty... talking about all the "broken" spells.

Hey and Rangers got the Shaft.