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D&D 5E Which abilities can detect a humanoid which is possessed by a ghost?
- Thread starter Lackhand
- Start date
Harzel
Adventurer
I would rule that detect good and evil does detect the ghost.
The use of the word "target" in the 5e rules is, IMO, horribly fraught and muddled, as sometimes it is used in the narrow mechanical sense of something designated by a spell caster and sometimes in the more natural sense of something affected by a spell. In the case of a ghost's possession, the way I think it ought to work is that nothing except turning can have an effect on the ghost. However, there is no restriction on the ghost having an effect on other things. Thus all divination and divination-like effects would work, including, for example, triggering a glyph set to activate on undead.*
As to whether the ghost is 'present', I would just fall back on the common conception of possession, which is that the possessing spirit is somehow 'inside' or fused with the possessed. The description of D&D ghost possession otherwise conforms to this - when possession begins the ghost 'disappears', and when it ceases the ghost reappears nearby the formerly possessed - so I don't see any reason to deviate from the common conception as to where the ghost is located during possession.
* Yeah, yeah, you can't observe something without having an effect on it. Whatever. This is D&D.
The use of the word "target" in the 5e rules is, IMO, horribly fraught and muddled, as sometimes it is used in the narrow mechanical sense of something designated by a spell caster and sometimes in the more natural sense of something affected by a spell. In the case of a ghost's possession, the way I think it ought to work is that nothing except turning can have an effect on the ghost. However, there is no restriction on the ghost having an effect on other things. Thus all divination and divination-like effects would work, including, for example, triggering a glyph set to activate on undead.*
As to whether the ghost is 'present', I would just fall back on the common conception of possession, which is that the possessing spirit is somehow 'inside' or fused with the possessed. The description of D&D ghost possession otherwise conforms to this - when possession begins the ghost 'disappears', and when it ceases the ghost reappears nearby the formerly possessed - so I don't see any reason to deviate from the common conception as to where the ghost is located during possession.
* Yeah, yeah, you can't observe something without having an effect on it. Whatever. This is D&D.
MxBaticeer
Villager
Eh? Why would the ghost “show up” on See Invisibility? It’s not invisible or ethereal, it’s possessing the person’s body. I would interpret the disappeared ghost as having no physical form (invisible or otherwise) while it possesses someone.
Okay, but now what does "no physical form" mean in D&D terms?
We still think it's a creature (because a detect evil and good -- a spell that detects creatures -- detects it). We think it has a space (because the spell that detects creatures detects it in that space). We think it "disappeared".
That sounds pretty D&D-style invisible to me. Ghosts already lack a physical form via traits like Incorporeal Movement and Etherealness (and how cool is that action's "be visible on the material when you're on the ethereal", by the way?).
The rules do not say it has no physical form while possessing, they say it "disappears" and "can't be targeted...".
Does it take damage from ending its turn next to a flaming sphere? I think we have to go beyond the rules to say "no" (it certainly wasn't targeted). It's a good beyond the rules.
Does it take damage from entering a forbiddance? I think the rules text for forbiddance is quite similar to flaming sphere, but my intuition is that the answer is different...
By the way, I like your ruling, I'm just pointing out how far we have to extrapolate from what the RAW actually says for this particular ability -- and so the answer to my thread question seems to be "whatever the DM says, depending on your ontological theory of possession". Which I guess I'm comfortable with.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Anything that stops divine sense or detect evil and good would also qualify against turn undead. So unless you think that a cleric cannot turn ghosts, those two effects should work.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
Have you ever encountered this situation in your campaign before? ...
...If Yes: Keep doing that.
...If No: Then I would handle it in a "folk-lore'ish" way.
For example: "The old fishwife's eyes finally look up from her work... Ahhh...you need to find out if someone is possessed by a ghost do you? Well, you will need to find a black cat. Take that beast close to the suspected person. If the cat hisses and it's fur turns white...then the poor person is, indeed, possessed!"
Something like that. This allows you to do three things at once.
First, it gives anyone a means of detecting possession. I mean, I guess this depends on how "magic" and "adventure'er rich" your campaign is (e.g., the availability of spells, Paladins, clerics, and leveled NPC's). In my campaigns, there are typically "mundane" means of accomplishing a lot of things that spells can do in seconds...and there are things that magic can not. Those things, however, are rare; such as a person possessed by a ghost or demon/devil.
Second, it adds a lot of flavour to the game.
Third, it gives you, the DM, "protection" from players accusing you of shenanigans. "I used by Detect Evil on her! Ghosts are EVIL! I should have detected something...". Once your players understand that NOTHING is 100% certain, they will likely start thinking 'outside the ability/spell box'. I know that when I started DM'ing this way a few decades ago, it made a HUGE different in how much involvement/RP'ing my players did (took me a decade to figure it out though...better late than never, right?).
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Have you ever encountered this situation in your campaign before? ...
...If Yes: Keep doing that.
...If No: Then I would handle it in a "folk-lore'ish" way.
For example: "The old fishwife's eyes finally look up from her work... Ahhh...you need to find out if someone is possessed by a ghost do you? Well, you will need to find a black cat. Take that beast close to the suspected person. If the cat hisses and it's fur turns white...then the poor person is, indeed, possessed!"
Something like that. This allows you to do three things at once.
First, it gives anyone a means of detecting possession. I mean, I guess this depends on how "magic" and "adventure'er rich" your campaign is (e.g., the availability of spells, Paladins, clerics, and leveled NPC's). In my campaigns, there are typically "mundane" means of accomplishing a lot of things that spells can do in seconds...and there are things that magic can not. Those things, however, are rare; such as a person possessed by a ghost or demon/devil.
Second, it adds a lot of flavour to the game.
Third, it gives you, the DM, "protection" from players accusing you of shenanigans. "I used by Detect Evil on her! Ghosts are EVIL! I should have detected something...". Once your players understand that NOTHING is 100% certain, they will likely start thinking 'outside the ability/spell box'. I know that when I started DM'ing this way a few decades ago, it made a HUGE different in how much involvement/RP'ing my players did (took me a decade to figure it out though...better late than never, right?).
^_^
Paul L. Ming
