Why are undead immune to mind-affecting effects?
krupintupple
First Post
i've always played it that they had some manner of innate 'lifesense' that seemed to foil most illusions used against them. as for enchantments, i've just reasoned that they're immune to them because that's necromancy's territory - i'm just fine with charm undead, command undead, and the like, as long as they're necromancy.
perhaps a holdover from my 2e days, but i feel that this gives necromancy something to do (if you recall, the 2e PHB had very few necromancy spells), besides twiddle its thumbs.
perhaps a holdover from my 2e days, but i feel that this gives necromancy something to do (if you recall, the 2e PHB had very few necromancy spells), besides twiddle its thumbs.
taliesin15
First Post
The majority of undead are pretty mindless (definitely zombies and skeletons). I would suggest, however, that perhaps one might modify the rule for some of the more powerful undead. Liches and vampires (the latter not under the control of another vampire) IMC usually have very high INT scores and have great willpower, and in fact, one of each are pretty much some of the most powerful and rich BBEGs around. That said, they also have pretty high saving throws, so altering the rule wouldn't effectively mean much.
taliesin15
First Post
Voadam mentions the immunity to mind-effecting spells for Treants, something I've never considered before. You know, that really doesn't make much sense to me. Treants I run like the Ents in LOTR, which I suspect most DMs do--as such they certainly have minds, not to mention the most elaborate language. Like Liches and Vampires (and possibly other stronger Undead with INT and will) I would more likely run them as not immune, but with high will saving throws, it would negate all but the most powerful spells.
Sorry, I know this thread is old, but it's something that came up in one of our games too so here's the explanation.
You musn't confuse mind and soul. The mind is made up of the physio-neurological process of the human (living) body. It is the result of electrical impulses through the nervous system and the generation of chemical substances through the body. The ability to think, imagine as well as consiousness, emotions, these are all part of what is called the mind.
In real life, when you feel an emotion, let say fear, it's your brain that associates your body response to an external stimuly and stimulate the emission of chemicals and hormones through your body, thus giving you a sensation of stomach cramp, or making you sweat, increases your heart rate, etc. Then you consciously (more or less) associate that response with the situation to come up with an explanation for your reaction. If the stimuly is an ugly creature that surprised you, you could be startled or scare. If it's a person close to you that touched you you could think of it as love. Truth is those reaction are very similar from a physical standpoint but the mind process it differently which then result in completly different view of the external world.
A soul is a conceptual entity. It is intangible, and thought to be made of so god-like force or universal energy that fills all living creature. Some might say it comes from some other unseen and ideal world, where souls will return afterwards, while other might think of an invisible paralelle universe made up of some sort of soul energy which surronds and penetrates us!
In real life, a mind is a very real thing, although extremely complicated and far from fully understood. On the other hand, a soul is not as widely recongnize to actually exist; no one as actually seen one (no one you know), it might or might not affects things around or even our physical body, and you can explain the existence of things that live without the necessity for one. It's intangible and conceptual, it's an attempt to explain things we don't understand.
In D&D however, mind and soul or both 2 very real things. Most living creature have both. The mind allowed them to think, act and basically be living creatures; it gives them emotions, make them dream, etc. The soul is the collection of all the character experience, his identity, whether it's built with the current life or comes built-in, and leaves the character at his death. Some creature like outsiders and elementals are souls given a physical body, and the soul is destroyed when they die (the soul does not 'depart'). Nevertheless, both are an important part of every living creatures.
In the light of all this it's easy to understand undeads' immynity to mind-affecting. While some undead do still have soul (ghost, vampire, lich), the fact that they don't have physiological functions prevent them from having mind. Thus vampire could still be enraged but the absence of physiological function prevent this rage of having any actual effect on his body; he would not generate adrenaline and therefore not gain moral bonuses from rage for example. Or an intelligent undead could be weary of a situation, but is body will not tremble in fear because there will be no chemical generated by is body. They can't be paralysed because the body doesn't actually moves, magic moves it, and the would not be hypnotized because while they see it's definitely not through neural response and is, I guess, attribuable to the unnatural forces at work.
But the mind is not what control the body anymore. The body is animated through some very unnatural phenomenom, usually by magic or some divine intervention.
Sure a vampire could talk about love, but he's not feeling it in his body; his soul might be longing for it, for a lost love, but it's just an illusion, or rather, he is 'feeling' it because love is also a concept, something that our mind makes up, and I guess could be remebered by the soul.
Magic that affects the soul can unsually affect intelligent undead (trap the soul for instance), but mind affecting effect will remain useless. The same goes for plant type (no nervous system, no chemical stimulation in the usual human sense), as well as construct and ooze (which are usually mindless on top of that).
The only exception I can think of are the Green Star Adept (CAr), who as no physiology and yet is not immune to mind affecting and elementals, who are not immune to mind affecting, but then I guess you can't understand every supernatural things in term of real life explanations.
You musn't confuse mind and soul. The mind is made up of the physio-neurological process of the human (living) body. It is the result of electrical impulses through the nervous system and the generation of chemical substances through the body. The ability to think, imagine as well as consiousness, emotions, these are all part of what is called the mind.
In real life, when you feel an emotion, let say fear, it's your brain that associates your body response to an external stimuly and stimulate the emission of chemicals and hormones through your body, thus giving you a sensation of stomach cramp, or making you sweat, increases your heart rate, etc. Then you consciously (more or less) associate that response with the situation to come up with an explanation for your reaction. If the stimuly is an ugly creature that surprised you, you could be startled or scare. If it's a person close to you that touched you you could think of it as love. Truth is those reaction are very similar from a physical standpoint but the mind process it differently which then result in completly different view of the external world.
A soul is a conceptual entity. It is intangible, and thought to be made of so god-like force or universal energy that fills all living creature. Some might say it comes from some other unseen and ideal world, where souls will return afterwards, while other might think of an invisible paralelle universe made up of some sort of soul energy which surronds and penetrates us!
In real life, a mind is a very real thing, although extremely complicated and far from fully understood. On the other hand, a soul is not as widely recongnize to actually exist; no one as actually seen one (no one you know), it might or might not affects things around or even our physical body, and you can explain the existence of things that live without the necessity for one. It's intangible and conceptual, it's an attempt to explain things we don't understand.
In D&D however, mind and soul or both 2 very real things. Most living creature have both. The mind allowed them to think, act and basically be living creatures; it gives them emotions, make them dream, etc. The soul is the collection of all the character experience, his identity, whether it's built with the current life or comes built-in, and leaves the character at his death. Some creature like outsiders and elementals are souls given a physical body, and the soul is destroyed when they die (the soul does not 'depart'). Nevertheless, both are an important part of every living creatures.
In the light of all this it's easy to understand undeads' immynity to mind-affecting. While some undead do still have soul (ghost, vampire, lich), the fact that they don't have physiological functions prevent them from having mind. Thus vampire could still be enraged but the absence of physiological function prevent this rage of having any actual effect on his body; he would not generate adrenaline and therefore not gain moral bonuses from rage for example. Or an intelligent undead could be weary of a situation, but is body will not tremble in fear because there will be no chemical generated by is body. They can't be paralysed because the body doesn't actually moves, magic moves it, and the would not be hypnotized because while they see it's definitely not through neural response and is, I guess, attribuable to the unnatural forces at work.
But the mind is not what control the body anymore. The body is animated through some very unnatural phenomenom, usually by magic or some divine intervention.
Sure a vampire could talk about love, but he's not feeling it in his body; his soul might be longing for it, for a lost love, but it's just an illusion, or rather, he is 'feeling' it because love is also a concept, something that our mind makes up, and I guess could be remebered by the soul.
Magic that affects the soul can unsually affect intelligent undead (trap the soul for instance), but mind affecting effect will remain useless. The same goes for plant type (no nervous system, no chemical stimulation in the usual human sense), as well as construct and ooze (which are usually mindless on top of that).
The only exception I can think of are the Green Star Adept (CAr), who as no physiology and yet is not immune to mind affecting and elementals, who are not immune to mind affecting, but then I guess you can't understand every supernatural things in term of real life explanations.
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TheEternal
First Post
I always figured that the reason some things were immune to mind affecting was either a) They had no minds (like common constructs or undead) b) They had a mind but it was set up in such a way that it made mind affecting spells impossible to cast (like the decentralized minds of sentient plants) or c) They had a normal mind, but they were powerful magic creatures that had created themselves so that they would have magic defenses set up around they're mind (like a lich or a vampire), I mean, think about it, if you were going to make your body and have all kinds of options on how you could make it uber, isn't making it immune to mind-affecting one one of the first things you would do?
green slime
First Post
Of course undead are immune to mind-affecting effects.
You can't poison the undead.
You can't inflict them with the flu.
You can't woo one to fall in love with you.
You can't tempt an undead with a piece of pie.
You can't procreate with undead.
Why should you be able to convince the undead to join you for tea, when all they want to do, is tear you apart, limb from limb?
You can't poison the undead.
You can't inflict them with the flu.
You can't woo one to fall in love with you.
You can't tempt an undead with a piece of pie.
You can't procreate with undead.
Why should you be able to convince the undead to join you for tea, when all they want to do, is tear you apart, limb from limb?
Thanael
Explorer
Maybe this is just my bias from all the other vampire things[*coughUnderworldcough*] I've seen, but I've never seen a vampire act without emotion. They almost always seem to have feelings and motivations and desires which don't necessarily revolve around rending human flesh.
I've always thought a vampire was basically like an olden leper. Afflicted by an unfortunate circumstance and thusly shunned from society. They still have thoughts and feelings in my opinion.
Though, to explain why they wouldn't be affected by mind-affecting things, one could simply say the feelings originate from the soul instead of the brain, and if the magic is explained as affecting the brain... well then it's useless.
Arkhandus
First Post
D&D vampires are chaotic evil automatically. Their entire existence is governed by bloodlust and the desire to secure more precious lifeblood for them to consume. Any semblence of their original mind is limited and minor compared to the all-consuming desire of a D&D vampire to feed. They charm or dominate other creatures so they can feed on them or trick others into falling into their grasp for feeding. They cannot be manipulated by charms and such because they want nothing more than to hunt, kill, and drain every living creature with blood. Necromancy can take hold of their souls and the negative energy that animates their body, and thereby force them to act like puppets on strings.
Treants have no humanlike nervous system, though they are capable of thought through less centralized and less-understandable means. They are little more than trees animated and transformed by nature spirits. Elementals are a strange case, but they, like Outsiders, are described as having only a singular existence; their mind, body, and soul are one, not distinct pieces, so supposedly they can be charmed etc. because their mind is an integrated part of their body and soul, even if their brain is an unrecognizeable mass of pebbles, flames, mist, or water.
Treants have no humanlike nervous system, though they are capable of thought through less centralized and less-understandable means. They are little more than trees animated and transformed by nature spirits. Elementals are a strange case, but they, like Outsiders, are described as having only a singular existence; their mind, body, and soul are one, not distinct pieces, so supposedly they can be charmed etc. because their mind is an integrated part of their body and soul, even if their brain is an unrecognizeable mass of pebbles, flames, mist, or water.
