D&D 5E Why do so many DMs use the wrong rules for invisibility?

[The Crimson Binome]

So where in the rules does it state that everyone automatically knows where you are? It says how you can avoid detection, and some ways that you might be detected. But I still can't find where it says you are automatically detected.

It's not that it needs to state you are automatically detected, because everyone around you is already automatically detected by default, and the invisibility condition doesn't do anything to change that. All it says is that, for the purpose of hiding, you are heavily obscured; which is simply one of the prerequisites for hiding. If it also made you hidden, it would have stated that.

And from a mechanical perspective, if you don't actually take the Hide action, then you haven't rolled your Stealth check, which means we don't know the DC for someone to even attempt to locate you by sound.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[FrogReaver]

So where in the rules does it state that everyone automatically knows where you are? It says how you can avoid detection, and some ways that you might be detected. But I still can't find where it says you are automatically detected.

Last time I checked, being automatically detected was the rule in 4E, not 5E.

Combat rules

 

[Lidgar]

At issue (I think) is that some players or DM's don't state that an invisible creature is hiding (in addition to being invisible) when that may be the intent.

If an invisible creature is hiding, a perception role is needed to detect (hear) it, and then know its location. If it's not hiding, then it is assumed that a creature can hear it and pinpoint its location.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

IMHO the rules for hiding are quite clear, but they are also counterintuitive. That is why a lot of people have problems interpreting the hiding rules, because they expect the rules to make sense. Once you let go of that kind of baggage and only look at what the rules text actually says, discerning the RAW is simple.

I would not recommend running hiding by RAW though, since the rules are less than good. Going by common sense about when you think hiding should be possible and calling for a stealth check when needed works much better.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

With RAW when you go invisible creatures still know your exact location which to a lot of people doesn't make a lot of sense. It's been argued that invisibility isn't perfect and there are traces visible until you take the hide action, but really that's just speculation to make up for what the rules tell us. So many just go with what makes sense for them and it turns out that can be very different from table to table.

In the game I'm currently playing in our GM rules invisibility and darkness as auto-hidden. You become aware of other creatures in darkness or that are invisible when you get within 5 feet of them. That rule is nowhere in the book but it works in our games and the warlock and the drow use darkness plenty to disorient enemies (and often allies too) on the battlefield.

If I were running a game I would probably go with something a bit different. Invisibility seems like a good time to use passive stealth since by being invisible you are harder to detect even when you aren't putting much effort into doing so. From there you would be hidden from creatures. Creatures would get a perception check when you do something that could potentially reveal your location such as attacking, casting a spell or making a lot of noise. Creatures could also use an action to make a perception check to find you if you are within line of sight of them.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Its taken me a while to get my head around the rules. What helps me is using two terms fairly carefully: "unseen" and "hidden".

Unseen: AKA heavily concealed. AKA blinded. You can't see the thing. You can't cast any spells at it that include "that you can see" in the targeting. You do know roughly where it is (on a grid, you know its square/hex) because you can hear it and smell it and see its footprints. If it can see you then you have disadvantage to attack it. If it can't see you then you attack it normally.

Hidden: The thing has taken steps (either by taking the Hide Action or by just not doing anything to advertise its presence) to conceal its presence. It is walking carefully. It has muffled its clothing and quietened its breathing. It has masked its scent (by walking downwind, for example). You don't know where the thing is. If you actively search for it (the Search Action) then you might become aware of its location (an opposed roll, Perception vs Stealth). If you aren't aware of its location then you can still guess.

Being unseen is generally a prerequisite for being hidden.

In summary: "unseen" means you can't see it, "hidden" means you can't see, hear or smell it.

Also, darkness hinders both you and your target.

 

[Lanefan]

As The Old Crow pointed out, you've got the RAW wrong. If both the attacker and the defender are in darkness (that they are unable to see through) attacks are made without advantage OR disadvantage, because Advantage from being an unseen attacker cancels Disadvantage from being unable to see your target.

Thus rendering the darkness pointless. What's needed here is a flat minus to the attack roll (peronally, I'd say -4), with possibility increased by that much of hitting a wrong target (or a wall or other obstacle); but for some reason 5e design seems not to want to do this.

Lan-"RAW 1, common sense 0"-efan

 

[Oofta]

Ok, let's keep this simple. The basic rules are available to everyone as a free download. If you can point out where in those rules it states that people know exactly where you are unless you are hidden (page number and quote please), I will take back all of my statements on this topic.

Until then, it is my ruling at my table when I am DMing that while the rules state how you can become undetected (hidden), that does not mean that you are automatically detected if you are not hidden. Don't agree? Rule differently when you're DMing. There doesn't have to be one true answer to every question.

The DC to guess the location is going to be what makes sense to the DM.

I use common sense when interpreting the rules unless the rules override common sense. The rules say that a wizard can wiggle their fingers and say ala-kazam to cast a fireball, therefore they can. They don't state that in a gymnasium sized room I automatically know within five feet where someone is because I hear them walking around. Other end of the room "somewhere over there". Right next to me whispering sweet nothings in my ear? I know where they are.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Hidden: The thing has taken steps (either by taking the Hide Action or by just not doing anything to advertise its presence) to conceal its presence.

The counter-intuitive part is that people assume "not doing anything to advertise its presence" is a passive condition that should apply unless you actively do something to stop it, and the game rules seem to imply that "not doing anything to advertise its presence" is an active condition that you have to manually declare.