Why does Belt of Vigor only go to +3?

[Prestidigitalis]

That's where the other half of that equation comes in - boons. I'm pretty fair about cooperating with my players for things like that.

Plus, as you say, extra feats. As I posted in another thread, I was toying with the idea of giving out "character feats" every few levels or so, that could be filled only by non-combat feats. That would free up the standard slots for things that affect the numbers while still allowing for character-development fluffy feats.

Awesome. I like your approach. I wish I could play in your campaign.

Does "non-combat" include things that can be used both in combat and out, such as Long Jumper or Sure Climber? How about Fleet Footed? Or is it just stuff like Linguist or Expert Tracker?

(P.S. -- Nemesis -- read your private messages)

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Awesome. I like your approach. I wish I could play in your campaign.

Does "non-combat" include things that can be used both in combat and out, such as Long Jumper or Sure Climber? How about Fleet Footed? Or is it just stuff like Linguist or Expert Tracker?

(P.S. -- Nemesis -- read your private messages)

I would prefer stuff like the latter, but would accept things like the former if it fit the concept the player had presented to me, except for Fleet Footed, which is mostly useful in combat.

Like I said, this is just an idea, untested and still just floating around in my skull.

Oh, and thank you for the compliment!

 

[sigfile]

And that's fine -- it's even what I would prefer. But I want to be able to customize my character, and if I can't do it with items, I'd like to have a few extra feats or something.

This is, precisely, the campaign I've been in for the last couple of months. Inherent Bonuses, extraordinarily rare magic items, and bonus feats at 3rd level and every five levels thereafter to make up for the lack of magic item properties. That's been working out quite well so far; I'd recommend the format to anyone. The focus shifts back to the character rather than the character's collection of shiny trinkets.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

This is, precisely, the campaign I've been in for the last couple of months. Inherent Bonuses, extraordinarily rare magic items, and bonus feats at 3rd level and every five levels thereafter to make up for the lack of magic item properties. That's been working out quite well so far; I'd recommend the format to anyone. The focus shifts back to the character rather than the character's collection of shiny trinkets.

Excellent. I've been thinking of something very much like this for my next (and first 4e) campaign. Glad to know it really does work as intended and expected.

 

[fba827]

Why does Belt of Vigor only go to +3?

Because when playing a social game with friends there is only so much vigor you want "down there..."

But more seriously ...

Is +3 surge value really a level 22 effect?

Could someone explain the game balance why it isn't a standard every-5-levels item that goes from +1 to +6?

You'll note in PHB1 and early magic item stuff, there was a heavy cost/high price for stuff that granted bonus to surge value. As more items progressed, the cost dropped -- take a look at Collar of Recovery in AV1. That has a full +6 bonus progression (lvl 4/9/14/19/24/29) for bonus to surge value as well as granting enhancement bonus to F/R/W. all in all, making it head and shoulders (no "neck slot item" pun intended) above the belt. so it's just a case of 'that type of bonus initially had a much higher value but was toned down after a while' so really, you'll be fine houseruling it to be a +6 progressive item.

 

[ERJHolton]

In a few cases, though, there is a difference between the effect on the Collar of Recovery and a bonus to healing surge value, making the latter generally more desirable.

For example, the Paladin feat Lend Health lets Lay on Hands use the Paladin's healing surge value for the amount healed, not the beneficiary. When bumped up with elements like the feats Dwarven Durability and Swift Recovery, or the Belt of Vigor, that makes a substantial difference.

Another example is the Gray Guard paragon path level 20 attack, which allows the paladin to spend a healing surge and add their surge value as damage to the attack. Belt of Vigor would help there, but Collar of Recovery wouldn't.

 

[OhGodtheRats]

I'm not great at arguing theory but I can throw out an example as a piece of evidence. It's kinda my job to try out a bit of everything & my local crew suffers in some games with me flipflopping to new stuff as it comes out. So I made a Cavalier Paladin (who rides a Dinosaur per the Dragon article but that's beside the point) and decided to see how "focused" I could get him. Class Features that increase Surge Value? Let's run with that.
My Dragonborn's Bloodied Value is 68.
My Dragonborn's Surge Value is 57.
Some of that is Racial, Some of it is Swift Recovery, Some of it is Item Set Bonus, Some of it is the Belt of Vigor. There's more to it but I could totally see why they might have intented Surge Value to be.....scary if it could be too easily buffed.

On the flipside and I know I'm opening a can of worms by saying it: The number of Surges you have doesn't increase (save Con increase) as you level. That kind of implies their value works on some other scale when compared to buffing, I don't know, a character's speed, or an item damage bonus.

My wife's in the background suggesting a 3rd point: "Don't all Waist Slot Items kinda suck/are filler for everyone except nerds who have goofy character concepts?"
I am ashamed I halfway agree. (Belt of Vigor being a tame "Essentials" item leads some weight to this.)

These are 3 random thoughts that I share. Thanks for humoring me.
-Jared

 

[Prestidigitalis]

My wife's in the background suggesting a 3rd point: "Don't all Waist Slot Items kinda suck/are filler for everyone except nerds who have goofy character concepts?"

If I had to pick a slot that had mostly lame items, it would be Hands. Head is very powerful for arcane characters but often not so much for the others.

There are actually a few good waist items, far better than Vigor. The Survivor's Belt gives you two rolls on every Death saving throw, which could be a big deal if you buy yourself some save bonuses with feats and other items. You can also tweak death saves so that 95% of the time you "roll" a 20 and can spend a surge. Unconscious basically turns into Stunned -- you lose your turn but then pop up -- and at level 21 humans can take the Timely Revival feat and roll Death saves at start of turn, so they don't even lose their turn.

 

[OhGodtheRats]

There are actually a few good waist items, far better than Vigor. The Survivor's Belt gives you two rolls on every Death saving throw, which could be a big deal if you buy yourself some save bonuses with feats and other items. You can also tweak death saves so that 95% of the time you "roll" a 20 and can spend a surge. Unconscious basically turns into Stunned -- you lose your turn but then pop up -- and at level 21 humans can take the Timely Revival feat and roll Death saves at start of turn, so they don't even lose their turn.

My lady's still recovering from last night's party so I can't pretend to quote her, but I highly suspect that she'd consider a "Human Fighter Pimped out/Designed to Die Better than most" to qualify as a Goofy Character Concept. It's cool (Badass even) but what you're describing seems to be in my mind's eye a Soul Train dancing Refugee who in combat falls down (Get Down!), makes a Save (Touch Ma' Self), and stands up to do it again (Get Up Y'all). Then again, my mind's eye is often broken.
-Jared

PS: I like Goofy Character Concepts/Gimmicks. I can't help it. Don't tell anyone.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

PS: I like Goofy Character Concepts/Gimmicks. I can't help it. Don't tell anyone.

I won't. But actually, I don't like most of them -- I just don't consider this to be one. Every character drops once in a while, but don't stay down if you don't have to. Think of the main character in Unbreakable.

* Getting up from unconscious by spending a surge is of course limited by your number of surges. But anyone who runs out of surges is already in trouble, so it's not really much of a limitation.