D&D 5E Why Good Players Do Not 14.25.

[Zardnaar]

On another forum I was reading about help+ wanted in regard tot he Sharpshooter and GWM feat. And on these forums people are still posting about them and there seems to be a growing consensus those feats are overpowered (OP) if not out right broken.

I also called bless broken/OP back in October 2014 or so due to the way it interacted with these feats.

Anyway in regard to the thread title on one of these other threads the claim was made he average AC in the Monster Manual is only 14.25. If true that is functionally very close to 14 AC.

In 5E I notice level 8/9 is also where things start to go wrong. This is due to feat combos coming online combined with ability scores hitting 20. For example a variant human fighter with the default array can have Sharpshooter+Crossbow expertise+ 20 dex and a +4 proficiency bonus at level 9.

Or you could have Polearm Master+ GWM or PAM+ Sentinel + 20 strength.

+4 Proficiency, +5 ability score, +2 archery style, + 2.5 off bless is +13.5 to hit AC 14.25 is almost an auto hit. with some rounding and the -5 penalty you more or less have +8 to hit vs AC 14 which is a hit ratio of 75% including the -5.

This is without any additional buffing that comes with bard dice or advantage. With SS+CE you only need a hit ratio of around 50% or 45% to deal more damage than by not using it.

So if 14.25 as an average AC is accurate I would say those 2 feats are even more borked than what I think they already are. IDK if that number is accurate all I know is unless the DM metagames against you with lots of high AC monsters the -5 pnealty is not that bad (except maybe for rogues).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Average AC in the monster manual =/= average AC of opponents actually faced.

The prior number doesn't even really inform the later all that well, and as a result is entirely irrelevant as a means by which to determine how well anything does or doesn't perform in an actual campaign.

 

[jasper]

I not seen this unless you doing alternate human with a feat at 1st level, 4 th level, a rolled 18, and stat bump at 8th.
Default array. 16 dex at 1st , Archery at 1st , Sharpshooter at 1st, Crossbow expertise at 4th. Stat bump at 8th for dex 18. Or am I missing something.
As I do AL please point how this can happen.

 

[Willie the Duck]

How are we defining broken/borked? If by that, one means, "strictly better options" (in at least certain instances) then yes. In games where those sets of feats are available, PCs will have more options (and not false options that no one would take), including some specific builds which do an overall higher damage output. It is a situation very similar to 1e AD&D when specialization was introduced. You could still take the options previously open to you, but also had an option which looked like it raised your fighter's overall damage output.

As to a more general concept of broken-- I'm not so sure. It is a power up to strength-based melee and ranged martial classes, particularly fighters (since they have the extra ASIs). Given that, despite magic being nerfed significantly compared to earlier editions, people are still complaining about the martial/magical disparity, I'm not sure that upping mid-to-high level martials is a problem.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I not seen this unless you doing alternate human with a feat at 1st level, 4 th level, a rolled 18, and stat bump at 8th.
Default array. 16 dex at 1st , Archery at 1st , Sharpshooter at 1st, Crossbow expertise at 4th. Stat bump at 8th for dex 18. Or am I missing something.
As I do AL please point how this can happen.

Fighter bonus ASI at 6th.

 

[Oofta]

I agree that the -5/+10 feats are incredibly overpowered, particularly after moderately high levels (8-10).

I play a ranged guy with sharpshooter and I kind of feel dirty playing him...the amount of damage I can dish out is ludicrous. Between precise strike and lucky, he rarely misses and the feat basically adds 30+ points to his damage every round with no downside in about 80% of our combats. Throw in Bless and it's even worse.

You can always up the AC to counter balance it a little bit, but that requires tweaking pretty most of the monsters in the book.

The feats have basically become a feat tax for ranged and great weapon fighters.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I not seen this unless you doing alternate human with a feat at 1st level, 4 th level, a rolled 18, and stat bump at 8th.
Default array. 16 dex at 1st , Archery at 1st , Sharpshooter at 1st, Crossbow expertise at 4th. Stat bump at 8th for dex 18. Or am I missing something.
As I do AL please point how this can happen.

Fighter gets a bonus ASI at 6th as well.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I agree that the -5/+10 feats are incredibly overpowered, particularly after moderately high levels (8-10).

I play a ranged guy with sharpshooter and I kind of feel dirty playing him...the amount of damage I can dish out is ludicrous. Between precise strike and lucky, he rarely misses and the feat basically adds 30+ points to his damage every round with no downside in about 80% of our combats. Throw in Bless and it's even worse.

You can always up the AC to counter balance it a little bit, but that requires tweaking pretty most of the monsters in the book.

The feats have basically become a feat tax for ranged and great weapon fighters.

None of my players use either of these Feats...in fact they have pretty much stayed clear of Feats in both Campaigns we play (meanwhile I wallow in them). As a partial experiment I threw a 6th Level Fighter-"Archer" at them with a few Ogres as fodder. Without Bless I was SHOCKED at the damage the NPC did. I made him as per a normal character, so he was a Champion (and it didn't hurt I rolled about 4 19's throughout the entire encounter). He was probably the deadliest encounter thus far in the campaign. Everyone in the group had at least 18 AC, so flipping that around if you have an entire group of people using these Feats against AC 14 enemies...ouch. =D

 

[Sacrosanct]

In 5E I notice level 8/9 is also where things start to go wrong. This is due to feat combos coming online combined with ability scores hitting 20. For example a variant fighter with the default array can have Sharpshooter+Crossbow expertise+ 20 dex and a +4 proficiency bonus at level 9..

Have you really noticed these things, or are you just guessing by looking at what you're reading? Because in actual game play, I'm not noticing that scenario at all. I guess it comes down to who you play with.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...all I know is unless the DM metagames against you with lots of high AC monsters...

Choosing monsters to use, and choosing how to equip those monsters, is categorically not "metagames against you" territory - it's what a DM is expected to be doing whether they allow feats or not.