Why I dislike Milestone XP

[Bradley Hindman]

I still take issue with your position on a lack of reward being a penalty in any case.

Arguing this point (however true or untrue) is unlikely to change anyone's opinion. Whether its viewed as a reward for some or a penalty to the others is all about personal perception and personality type instead of logic. As an example, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away my group was going to play SAGA edition Star Wars. Without giving it a try, a couple players vehemently complained about the condition track because of the penalty that it would impose on their rolls. I must admit I was a bit annoyed at the complaints BEFORE we even tried the system. So, I announced that instead of applying a penalty to the character's rolls, the condition track would modify the DC of what was being attempted. To my utter shock, they were happy with that solution. The end result was identical, but for some reason it mattered whether their rolls would be penalized or the difficulty augmented. People are weird and illogical. But fun isn't about logic, its usually based on emotional impact.

 

[Imaculata]

When combat is the only way to gain XP, people are incentivized to prioritize combat. Reward XP for things other than combat in equal measure? Then what's the purpose of XP?

I'm having trouble following this line of reasoning. Why would rewarding the players in equal measure for the other pillars of the game invalidate the purpose of XP?

 

[iserith]

I'm tired of arguing semantics,

I don't think we are "arguing semantics." Explain what you mean by those words.

 

[iserith]

Arguing this point (however true or untrue) is unlikely to change anyone's opinion. Whether its viewed as a reward for some or a penalty to the others is all about personal perception and personality type instead of logic. As an example, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away my group was going to play SAGA edition Star Wars. Without giving it a try, a couple players vehemently complained about the condition track because of the penalty that it would impose on their rolls. I must admit I was a bit annoyed at the complaints BEFORE we even tried the system. So, I announced that instead of applying a penalty to the character's rolls, the condition track would modify the DC of what was being attempted. To my utter shock, they were happy with that solution. The end result was identical, but for some reason it mattered whether their rolls would be penalized or the difficulty augmented. People are weird and illogical. But fun isn't about logic, its usually based on emotional impact.

Sure, I don't think I'll convince Oofta. But I'm not trying to. I'm trying to convince everyone else who is reading the exchange who has not publicly stated a position on the matter. It's much easier to reverse oneself if one hasn't already taken a stand aloud.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

I'm having trouble following this line of reasoning. Why would rewarding the players in equal measure for the other pillars of the game invalidate the purpose of XP?

I believe the argument is that if all is rewarded equally, then nothing is incentivized. At which point you should ask yourself why are you bothering to award XP when there are simpler ways to decide when a character should gain a level.

 

[Caliban]

Sure, I don't think I'll convince Oofta. But I'm not trying to. I'm trying to convince everyone else who is reading the exchange who has not publicly stated a position on the matter. It's much easier to reverse oneself if one hasn't already taken a stand aloud.

Wow. Someone is certainly impressed with their own opinion.

 

[Oofta]

I'm having trouble following this line of reasoning. Why would rewarding the players in equal measure for the other pillars of the game invalidate the purpose of XP?

I just think it's a clunky hold-over from previous editions that has it's roots in advancing levels because you loot defeated enemies based on it's war game roots.

The only official rules we have for how much XP to reward are for defeating monsters. Anything else is just fluffy made up numbers that have no shared meaning or value. In the past when I made up those numbers I basically did it based on how quickly I wanted the characters to advance. I quickly realized that for me it was meaningless.

At a certain point you're deciding that PCs should gain levels based on N numbers of encounters, possibly adjusting the reward slightly based on difficulty, risk or some other variable. So I cut out the middle man and turned it around since it added no value to the game. It's easier for me and my players.

Want to use XP? Go for it. Want to reward PCs for how many times they say the word "blue" in context in the game? More power to you. Want to award levels based only on combat? Have fun, a lot of people do it and I did it for years.

All of this is just, like, an opinion man.

I don't think we are "arguing semantics." Explain what you mean by those words.

You don't consider lack of reward a penalty, I do. It's semantics.

 

[iserith]

I believe the argument is that if all is rewarded equally, then nothing is incentivized. At which point you should ask yourself why are you bothering to award XP when there are simpler ways to decide when a character should gain a level.

That argument appears to be based in the idea that all pillars should be rewarded equally with XP, which I don't take to be a given. I don't think the DMG does either. It's left up to the DM. My take is that the DM is well-served by giving out XP to the pillars that are most important to the particular campaign and possibly give out other rewards for pillars that are not rewarded with XP. Then the players have a meaningful choice between what they want to pursue.

 

[Oofta]

That argument appears to be based in the idea that all pillars should be rewarded equally with XP, which I don't take to be a given. I don't think the DMG does either. It's left up to the DM. My take is that the DM is well-served by giving out XP to the pillars that are most important to the particular campaign and possibly give out other rewards for pillars that are not rewarded with XP. Then the players have a meaningful choice between what they want to pursue.

I guess that's where I disagree. I don't need or want a carrot (or a stick) in the form of XP to motivate my players. The campaign should grow and evolve based on what's most engaging and fun for the group. I set the scene, the players tell the story and tell me (sometimes literally) if they want more or less of any given pillar.

 

[5ekyu]

Arguing this point (however true or untrue) is unlikely to change anyone's opinion. Whether its viewed as a reward for some or a penalty to the others is all about personal perception and personality type instead of logic. As an example, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away my group was going to play SAGA edition Star Wars. Without giving it a try, a couple players vehemently complained about the condition track because of the penalty that it would impose on their rolls. I must admit I was a bit annoyed at the complaints BEFORE we even tried the system. So, I announced that instead of applying a penalty to the character's rolls, the condition track would modify the DC of what was being attempted. To my utter shock, they were happy with that solution. The end result was identical, but for some reason it mattered whether their rolls would be penalized or the difficulty augmented. People are weird and illogical. But fun isn't about logic, its usually based on emotional impact.

Well, in the realm of semantics... Some argue against the word prnalty, sone exhort incentives... Maybe to get beyond the nomenclature-warriors the term "disincentive" could be used to more neutralky express what both seem ro be saying... Providing xp for one and not the other is likely **where xp or advancement matters** to disincentivize the choices that dont yield xp since it will leave the ones going that way lower levels.

In cases where xp doesnt matter, it wont incentivize either.

The default 5e position is what it is, but variants are available for when those arecpermitted, both in 5e products and without.

For me, i dobt use xp to incentivize any selected action so i dont have any of those issues.