Why I dislike Milestone XP

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[MENTION=57914]GameOgre[/MENTION] Which ever way you choose, I've never seen a XP or leveling system presented in any edition of D&D that we used "out of the box." It's same same but different.

With XP in 5e, there are precious little guidelines for XP from anything besides defeating monsters. If you really want to encourage player exploration & creativity, then you need to devise your own guidelines.

With milestone leveling in 5e, the guidelines in the hardcover adventures have been pretty minimal, and you'll need to expand on the given guidelines.

Currently I'm running a modified Tomb of Annihilation (PCs started at 3rd) and opted to handle milestone leveling in a way I feel captures the best of both approaches:

Level 3: Arrival & Port Nyanzaru
Level 3-6: Jungle exploring (“finding and getting to the Lost City”) (+1 level)
Level 5-8: Lost City of Omu (“exploring, dealing with yuan-ti, getting key”) (+1 level)
Level 7-10: Kuluth-Mar (“learning atropal’s identity”) (+1 level)
Level 7-9: Fane of the Night Serpent (+1 level)
Levels 9-12: Tomb of the Nine Gods (+1 level per two dungeon levels)

(+1 level for every 4 “story significant” sites the PCs explore) Camp Righteous, Ch’gakare’s Tomb, Dangwaru (The Tortle Package, 4-8), The Dawn Warrior, Dungrunglung, Dur Unkush, The Emerald Crater, Firefinger, Fort Beluarian, Heart of Ubtao, Hrakhamar, Jahaka Anchorage, Kir Sabaal, Matolo (5-10), Mbala, Nangalore, Orolunga, Slaver’s Cove, Wreck of the #, Wreck of the Narwhal, Wreck of the Star Goddess, Wyrmheart Mine, Yellyark, X, X

If the PCs return to Port Nyanzaru between 5th and 10th level, run The Rot From Within trilogy (DDAL07-06 Fester and Burn, DDAL07-07 Rotting Roots, DDAL07-08 Putting the Dead to Rest). If the PCs do nothing, the undead army besieges Port Nyanzaru. The trilogy should fill about two sessions. (+1/2 level)

(+1/2 level each) Heart of the Wild (5-10). Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan “Quomec” (5). Peril at the Port (1-10). Return of the Lizard King (3-4). Ruins of Hisari (11-16). Ruins of Mezro (1-16).

 

[kelvan1138]

I have no particular opinion on adventure paths. I just want to know how I can get my XP (or levels) so I can go do that. I'm not at all keen on DMs just awarding levels when they feel like it. I want some goals and direction plus a tangible reward for achieving said goals.

I find in my own campaigns and in the ToA game I'm in, standard XP works great. We get a little dose right after a challenge is completed and it drives everyone onward as we get closer and closer to leveling up. In Friday's game, we were really pushing our luck to get to 6th level before the session ended and fell about 200 XP short dammit! But at least we'll level up after the first challenge next session...

I appreciate when a DM calculates XP for me. When I DM there is 0 chance of me doing so though, I have too many other things to pay attention to. You level when I say so!

 

[Dausuul]

I will never award XP on the basis of monster kills. Bookkeeping nuisance aside, the last thing I want to do is incentivize the players to pick random fights. If they pick a fight, it should be because the enemy stands between them and some goal, or because they have a beef with that specific enemy.

My current group levels up when the DM says, because no one is interested in tracking XP. If the group did want to track XP, though, I would have no problem with XP awards as long as they were based on accomplishments within the game world, as opposed to pure murderhoboing. They don't have to be the accomplishments I planned out for you, but you do have to accomplish something.

I have occasionally toyed with the idea of awarding XP for treasure, 1E-style. That would be well-suited to a campaign with a "treasure hunting" theme; for instance, a swashbuckling pirate campaign. (Though you might only receive the XP when you bury the treasure...) But it'd have to be a campaign where such a focus on plunder was appropriate.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In a game where there is no cost to combat - you're definitely going to win, and any damage you take will be removed after a nap - getting rid of combat XP means that playing through the combat is just a huge waste of time at the table. When there's no positive or negative consequence to combat, fighting is entirely meaningless.

I would be much more accepting of milestone-based XP if the healing rules were changed such that HP recovery was severely limited. It would mean the correct choice is to avoid combat whenever possible, because there's no real reward and the potential resource cost is high, but that's a fine way to play. (Likewise under default 5E rules, you should seek out every fight because there's no real cost and high potential rewards, and that's an alright way to play if you're into that sort of thing.)

I agree that if there are zero consequences to a combat then what's the point, but that's rarely the case IME, even when not using XP.

For example, we recently went after a beholder (because the drow had some information we needed and they weren't going to part with it willingly unless we killed this encroaching beholder for them). The beholder was using some monsters to guard its lair (primarily trolls). We avoided what we could, but in the cramped confines of the cave system we stumbled into a few groups (our rogue had his brain eaten by an illithid a while back, and we've been bereft of a scout since). Hence, we had to fight our way through to achieve our ultimate goal. Our resources were whittled down, and the beholder was that much harder as a result (if we could have avoided those trolls, we gladly would have). We certainly didn't want to make camp in that lair and have the beholder surprise us.

Overall, I would say it has reduced the number of combats overall, but that isn't a bad thing IMO. In one of our earlier adventures, we had to rescue some townswomen who had been taken by yuan-ti. After we slew their leader, we negotiated with his second in command (a priestess of some kind) and reached an accord. We leave them alone, and they'll leave the townsfolk be. Their numbers were heavily reduced by our incursion, but the amount of resources we had left made us finishing them off very dicey. Instead, after a tense negotiation, everyone walked away satisfied and we still leveled up even though we technically only cleared about half the dungeon.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I generally use experience points, though I'll reward it for various tasks. My players went on an quest to find potatoes, an imported food in my setting, going to the big city and getting some. Since this task was easy, and they were level one, they only got 25 XP, but it's me dipping my toes into giving XP for things other than winning a fight or negotiating out of combat. (and no, I won't give out 25 XP every time they eat a potato, that's asinine)

If I were to skip XP, I'd either do the session based advancement in the DMG, or the "hours played" advancement provided in XGE (either as is or slowed down to better match the pace the DMG recommends for session based advancement).

Seems like small potatoes.

 

[Wiseblood]

Leveling is weird and has weird effects on the way the game plays and is played.

Leveling is about getting better. Most of us want to get better. The how, in this case, is xp or fiat. That is not really important though except to the tastes of the players and DM. Timing seems to be more important than the how.

 

[jasper]

Milestone Leveling is a time saver and gets the job done. There isn't a lot of doubt that it's become widely used especially in Adventure paths.

Even so I have a heavy dislike for it....

Milestone is so last century American. I either use Kilometerstone or StoneStone leveling.

 

[flametitan]

Seems like small potatoes.

Well they almost made it hard on themselves by the socially awkward cleric trying to sell her rope to the owner (an especially burly elf woman), telling them it would help lose weight, getting the party kicked out with no potato. Luckily, it was a decently sized city (11k inhabitants or so) so they found another place that sold potatoes.

 

[jasper]

Milestone XP and railroad adventure paths are both the spawn of Hextor. I fart in their general direction. I...

Quote from Hextor, "Forgive my conjoined twin. He is mad because I get the booth babes. And hey, that fart was a wet one. Time to change pants."

 

[cmad1977]

I use both and have no issues with ‘railroad’ adventures. The issue of railroading is a DM issue and not an AP issue.