Why I Love D&D 3.5: Less Player Whining

[mearls]

When 3.5 came out, I bitched about a lot of the rules. But the more I use it, the more I appreciate almost all the changes. Here's one that hit me during the last game session.

When cover went from having a few different possible values to a flat +4, all the time, no matter what, I wasn't happy. It seemed more flexible and interesting to have different types of cover. However, the more I use the rule the more I appreciate it. The flat cover bonus cuts out a lot of potential DM-player arguments. I didn't even think of this until I realized something after the nth time my players (well, the two problem children) began whining about this, that, or the other thing.

I realized that while they might whine about a lot of things, they couldn't whine about the AC bonus to cover that I assigned to anything. It was always +4, no questions asked. There was no room for debate.

Anyway, that's one reason why this harried DM loves 3.5. Considering how useful cover is, I know that a few people in my gaming group would fight tooth and nail for that extra quarter cover every time they sat behind a rock. There's a special place in RPG purgatory for players who think that the rules are a weapon to use against the DM.

 

[Mark]

I realized that while they might whine about a lot of things

What else, in your experience, do they whine about?

 

[mearls]

What else, in your experience, do they whine about?

It's more a matter about what they *don't* whine about. There's two guys in my group who sometimes think that I'm personally out to get them, or that the campaign is a grand story and I'll do anything to keep them from pushing it off the rails.

Here's an example - in my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, one guy is playing a warlock who has the spider climb invocation. He's always trying to walk on the ceiling as a way to shoot down into melee, and thus avoid the cover bonus that a creature gets from whatever PC it's in melee with. Since the average ceiling is about 10 feet tall, and standing up there puts his head at mid-back level of the Medium size creatures on the floor, I never give it to him.

So, he sometimes whines about it. Basically, anything that requires a judgement call from me touches off a round of whining.

It's interesting that D&D 3, and 3.5 to an even greater extent, cuts down those judgement calls. Some bemoan that lack of creativity for DMs, and in many ways I agree, but in action it does a lot to keep players from whining.

The funny thing is, whining is to me as anger is to Bruce Banner. When the players really start getting on my nerves, that's when the monsters start using tactics that would make Tucker's kobolds proud. I love my gaming group, they're all friends of mine, but sometimes I'd much rather play D&D than debate D&D.

 

[Asmor]

Here's an example - in my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, one guy is playing a warlock who has the spider climb invocation. He's always trying to walk on the ceiling as a way to shoot down into melee, and thus avoid the cover bonus that a creature gets from whatever PC it's in melee with. Since the average ceiling is about 10 feet tall, and standing up there puts his head at mid-back level of the Medium size creatures on the floor, I never give it to him.

There's a simple enough answer to that which involves thinking outside the box. The PC can walk on the wall, near the ceiling.

I still wouldn't give it to him, personally, but I think it's a funny notion. I'd probably make him make constitution checks periodically, too, I imagine trying to hold your bulk sideways is a lot more demanding than standing upright (or upside down).

 

[DarrenGMiller]

There's a special place in RPG purgatory for players who think that the rules are a weapon to use against the DM.

I agree. Also for those players who constantly inform you that certain rules are unbalanced or "dumb" and should be changed, especially for those who repeatedly cite real world physics, chemistry or biology to try to prove it to you.

DM

 

[Psion]

When cover went from having a few different possible values to a flat +4, all the time, no matter what, I wasn't happy. It seemed more flexible and interesting to have different types of cover. However, the more I use the rule the more I appreciate it.

Sorry, I still hate it and will be using 3.0 cover. It was simple and the illustrations made judging it easy. There was no reason for this change AFAIAC.

 

[Jaws]

mearls' point: Psion's custom title.


Peace and smiles

j.

 

[Psion]

mearls' point: Psion's custom title.

It would be real fun to change my custom title right about now.

 

[Crothian]

Once again I am left with a wondering of exactly how different the people I play with must be. I can't recall a single whining occurance in the days of d20.

 

[shilsen]

I agree. Also for those players who constantly inform you that certain rules are unbalanced or "dumb" and should be changed, especially for those who repeatedly cite real world physics, chemistry or biology to try to prove it to you.

DM

True. I actually put a comment in my house rules about not assuming that physics, chemistry, biology, etc. work in the game the same way as they do in our universe.