Why I Love D&D 3.5: Less Player Whining

[Mark]

It's more a matter about what they *don't* whine about. There's two guys in my group who sometimes think that I'm personally out to get them, or that the campaign is a grand story and I'll do anything to keep them from pushing it off the rails.

Here's an example - in my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, one guy is playing a warlock who has the spider climb invocation. He's always trying to walk on the ceiling as a way to shoot down into melee, and thus avoid the cover bonus that a creature gets from whatever PC it's in melee with. Since the average ceiling is about 10 feet tall, and standing up there puts his head at mid-back level of the Medium size creatures on the floor, I never give it to him.

So, he sometimes whines about it. Basically, anything that requires a judgement call from me touches off a round of whining.

It's interesting that D&D 3, and 3.5 to an even greater extent, cuts down those judgement calls. Some bemoan that lack of creativity for DMs, and in many ways I agree, but in action it does a lot to keep players from whining.

The funny thing is, whining is to me as anger is to Bruce Banner. When the players really start getting on my nerves, that's when the monsters start using tactics that would make Tucker's kobolds proud. I love my gaming group, they're all friends of mine, but sometimes I'd much rather play D&D than debate D&D.

When I wind up with players that get that way, I usually take the dice out of their hands and restrict player participation to verbal gaming (with much encouragement to staying in chaarcter). I know that some folks as players would say that they wouldn't stand for it, but the ones who have acquiesced found a new or renewed love for the game (then the dice can be given back) and the ones who would walk really never bothered me a whole hell of a lot (if they hadn't, I might have). With the dice out of their hands, and modifiers never being stated aloud by me, the arguments about minutiae all but disappeared.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Mike, did you know that you're wrong?

PHB p152, 2nd para, headed "varying degrees of cover"!



- incidentally I also greatly prefer the 3.5e version of cover - it is simple to say "cover" or "improved cover" and either get the standard cover bonus or an improved cover bonus.

Cheers

He's not the only one who missed it, I didn't notice that it was there either! That will likely get rid of one house rule 3.0ism.

The Auld Grump, now if only the monsters weren't square...

 

[Storyteller01]

Sorry, I still hate it and will be using 3.0 cover. It was simple and the illustrations made judging it easy. There was no reason for this change AFAIAC.

So, waht does AFAIAC stand for?

 

[Deadguy]

So, waht does AFAIAC stand for?

As Far As I Am Concerned

 

[Storyteller01]

As Far As I Am Concerned

Thank ye sir!

Of the 3.5 changes, I love the DR rules and facing. DR rules make combat more interesting, and magic weapons less of a focus. Facing just makes sense to me, And I don't have to figure out what direction larger critters are facing.

The cover and weapons sizings erk me, but most of you know about that already.

 

[Jdvn1]

Of the 3.5 changes, I love the DR rules and facing. DR rules make combat more interesting, and magic weapons less of a focus. Facing just makes sense to me, And I don't have to figure out what direction larger critters are facing.

Except for Beholders and Dragons, right? Some critters have attacks that only work in certain directions.

 

[Storyteller01]

Except for Beholders and Dragons, right? Some critters have attacks that only work in certain directions.

Agreed. My problem was, if said critter is facing one way, how do I place the bulk of the body? How many of my players are going to try climbing or jumping over the dragon so they can gain flanking attacks?

Then again, my players haven't dealt with to many of those yet.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Interesting stuff in here. My most recent campaign has opened my eyes to many things old mearls here has been talking about. I cut the group down to five players and warned everyone ahead of time that if they had a problem with a ruling I made that couldn't be solved with a single quotation from the rulesbook, then they have to wait until a break in the game or until after the session to discuss it with me. I love my group to death, but I've got about half the group that really wants to roleplay and only cares about the plot and the other half which is obsessed with metagaming. Mearls' example of the players sitting around weighing and measuring his spot call on a wacky maneuver sent chills of recognition down my spine.

At the moment, most of my players seem to like 3.5 better and personally, from a rules standpoint, I don't much care either way. I can pretty much see all sides of the arguments. There is no question, though, that it has simplified the game in a number of ways, which is always going to make it easier to adjudicate.

One thing I will say is that I agree with Psion that the blatant rules changes made to accommodate the miniatures are unsettling. This is one reason I loathe, from the deepest blackest part of my very soul, Attacks of Opportunity. Oh, sure, they make logical sense. Heck, the rules aren't even that bad. You pretty much have to use them because they're so tightly interwoven with much of the game. But they have made it impossible for my group to play without miniatures anymore. About half the group (me included) is content to only have attacks of opportunity when two characters are in melee combat; the other half bogs down any non-minis combat with "Wait! Don't I get an attack of opportunity?" every time an NPC or creature moves. And it makes me want to throttle them.

It's sad, though, that my whiniest player is also my best roleplayer. He's the one in the group that uses a character voice, always makes decisions in-character even if he knows it's not the best decision, and goes out of his way to emphasize his character's actions in any social setting in order to give the best performance. But he's obsessed also with having the best character in combat, and inevitably every session I have to tell him to just shut up, accept a ruling, and get on with the story. You know what's even worse? It's my brother!

 

[Orius]

There's a special place in RPG purgatory for players who think that the rules are a weapon to use against the DM.

Purgatory? You're a softer DM than I am. I send weasely rules lawyers straight to hell.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I find I whine in games I enjoy. If I'm not enjoying it then I really don't give a monkeys what happens to my character so I never complain.