Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[Storm-Bringer]

There's another reason for them. Minions are a class of opponent that decouple attack and defense values from hit points. Meaning that they can provide a reasonable degree of challenge to a party without too much additional bookkeeping (seeing as they have 1 HP, effectively).

If you decouple the three fundamnetal defining characteristics of a 'monster', you are effectively removing it as a 'monster' and putting a skill challenge in its place.

In previous editions, this class of opponent didn't exist. If a creature could hurt a mid-to-high level party, then it could automatically take a more-or-less proportional amount of hurt in return (and thus requiring more accounting of said units of hurt).[/quote]
Yes, they did exist. They were called 'traps'.

The reality in an RPG is ultimately the backdrop for telling stories with and about the PC's. Most, if not all, role-playing is essentially of this type.

Like many things, one person's observation is not by defintion universal.

 

[Pbartender]

I am just saying what the RAW is. I am not saying that you should have a kid fight a Balor Minion. (Not that a Balor Minion exists unless you create it.)

It's also noticeable that a creature doesn't have to die when reduced to 0 hit points or less. So tripping or falling might knock a Minion out. (though in case of falling, he also might get an Acrobotics Check to reduce falling damage, possibly below 0 points).

...

The point is that you usually won't bother to even pick stats for such a fight. We just assume either the results we want to have, or the results that seems most likely. If we're rewriting David vs Goliath, that kid kills the Balor with a lucky shot. If we go by likelihoods, the kid dies.

In other words... "THIS IS BATTERY ACID, YOU SLIME!"

 

[Jack99]

We're got several 4e releases in the pipeline: we're working on Freeport Companion for 4e, we have a race book called Castoffs and Crossbreeds, and we have Nevermore 4e coming along as well.

Sounds very intriguing - Is this Nevermore something I am supposed to know what is? Doesn't ring a bell atm.

And I should state that when I talk about gaming mechanics and creator goals, I'm usually very dispassionate.

Fair enough.

There is no Balor minion. The Balor is a lvl 27 elite brute. No one is taking it out in one shot.

There is one in one of the adventures (I think it was in the last one)

 

[Mallus]

If you decouple the three fundamnetal defining characteristics of a 'monster', you are effectively removing it as a 'monster' and putting a skill challenge in its place.

This seems, well, false.

A Skill Challenge is a series of related Skill Checks used in conjunction to resolve a specific conflict or achieve a goal.

A Minion is a monster that has near party level to-hit and defenses but effectively 1 HP. Not quite a glass cannon, more like a glass handgun.

I'm not seeing the similarity (and my threshold for similarity is pretty low )

Yes, they did exist. They were called 'traps'.

If you want to see Minions as motile traps you're certainly welcome to. But you're straining to draw a parallel that's not terribly instructive.

Like many things, one person's observation is not by definition universal.

Do you have a counter-observation to offer? One that might lead to a discussion? Or are just pointing out that I'm not omniscient (I'm married, I know that already...)?

 

[Mallus]

Minions provide "bodies" for powers and movement dynamics, while offering little threat in return.

I can agree with that assessment, but I think you're underselling the threat Minions are meant to represent. They're different from the previous edition's ubiquitous fodder, the 1HD monster. Minions are meant to hit PC's, and not be auto-hit in return. If you ignore them, they'll harm you.

The question is always in what manner are those stories unfolded and do the mechanics of the game support or detract from the various ways of unfolding.

Sure. I guess Minions (and whatever implications some people feel that they carry) don't have an effect one way or the other on the story content of my campaign. All we see is the bookkeeping benefits.

Whatchu talkin 'bout Willis?

Invoking Arnold Drummond is always kosher!

 

[MrGrenadine]

...the pure cinematic raison d'etre for minions is plenty good enough for me. I've seen enough roars of approval at the table when someone cuts through four or five in a round to know that it's good enough for my players too. Pure fun, an element with practically no other purpose in life (or death) than to make the players feel like heroes. I like.

For me, fighting paper tigers doesn't feel heroic. I now know that anything that goes down on one hit was a minion, and was just there to be a minor nuisance. And if I've wasted anything other than an At-Will to kill it? Argh.

I much prefer fighting enemies who actually make sense in the world, and don't just exist as a cinematic concept. AFAIC, the character I'm role-playing is heroic by dint of his actions in a dangerous world, and its much more heroic to actually fight something with teeth, that fights back, that can take a hit and change tactics and come back for more.

Just popping dangerous looking balloons doesn't do it for me.

 

[wedgeski]

Just popping dangerous looking balloons doesn't do it for me.

Well, you don't fight rooms full of minions (well, my guys did once, but that's besides the point). The balloons are there to make the noise while the clowns in the middle rip you a new one with their pointy teeth. Minions are dressing, decoration, and if you don't think they can hit you, get your favourite PC, and stroll into the middle of a bunch of them, and see what happens.

Surely not every fight you engage in has to be a bitter struggle to the bloody death? Doesn't that get exhausting?

 

[AllisterH]

re: Minions and the world

Just curious. Before 3e and it introduced stats for monsters, did people assume monsters couldn't function in the world since there were no stats for them in the MM?

Do people have this much trouble with coming to terms with Solos and Elites as those two clearly are metagame mosters as much as minions are.

 

[Psion]

You are the one assuming. But let me clarity.

Example:

The DM runs a sandbox game. The players, having heard stories of the Red Wood and it's ancient elven ruins, decide to ignore the warnings that trolls live near the ruins in great numbers. The players figure they can either parlay/bribe the trolls or run away.

As they make their way through the forest, they are surprised (ambushed) by a couple of trolls.

In 3.x: At least two, if not more characters die the first round. If surprised, they might not even have a chance to attempt a non-lethal resolution.

In 4e: Chances are that noone will outright die in the first round. The players are still SOL, but at least the get the chance to run.

This example illustrates what I meant. I was not talking anything about combat always being an option. That's the whole point. It's not. They are still going to die, but in 4e, they will at least live long enough to have a chance to do something else besides fight. Often that was not the case in 3.x. IME anyway.

I consider that a very contrived example or a very naive one, and illustrates that you missed my point about combat not being the only option. You simply assume that the players stumble into the trolls and get into a combat. That's really back to my take on an undesirable situation or poor sandbox DMing: combat is the only option.

You stumble into a hex with a troll in a sandbox game with a good sandbox DM*, the DM will consider what the prevailing situation in the area is. Do the trolls influence the environment around them? Do the PCs find carcasses? Tracks? Remnant of unfortunates who ran across the trolls?

When you are doing setting driven DMing, the monsters in the hex aren't the only thing present in the environment, and the terrain is more than just something to complicate your power uses.

If this really was the players' fault (e.g., as you said, they assume they can parley with trolls and ignore warnings), then that might serve as a harsh lesson. One that rolling up the new characters should help hammer home.**

But trolls surprising players without warning in a sandbox game? That simply wouldn't happen were I to run. Trolls are not stealth hunters; they are used to ruling by brute force.

* - And really, you could write a DMG to educate would be good sandbox DMs.

** - In BD&D, rolling a new character might be pretty quick. In 3.5, I might contrive to let them live with some major consequence, e.g., they wake up naked hanging over the stew.

 

[I'm A Banana]

In other words... "THIS IS BATTERY ACID, YOU SLIME!"

The balloons are there to make the noise while the clowns in the middle rip you a new one with their pointy teeth.

Thanks to my clown phobia, I now have to rock back and forth in a corner for a few minutes.

And this thread was going so well, too...

THANKS, JERKS.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFHBtu6Nb40]YouTube - Scary Dancing Clown[/ame]