Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[Fifth Element]

Sure there's a difference (and nice description, btw). Like I said, I don't think minion rules are bad, per se, but I think that they can cause problems.....like when Batman goes to rescue Commissioner Gordon and Aunt Harriet from Two Face's minions, only to discover than not only can the Commish take out minions as well as Batman can, but so can Aunt Harriet!

You did it again. The Commish and Aunt Harriet cannot take out minions "as well as Batman can". They can take out a single minion with a lucky shot, and risk immenent death in doing so. Batman eats minions for breakfast. Not the same thing.

You're assuming the ability to take down a minion with a lucky blow while putting yourself in great danger is the equivalent of being able to mow down minions left and right. They are not equivalent.

 

[Scribble]

Sure there's a difference (and nice description, btw). Like I said, I don't think minion rules are bad, per se, but I think that they can cause problems.....like when Batman goes to rescue Commissioner Gordon and Aunt Harriet from Two Face's minions, only to discover than not only can the Commish take out minions as well as Batman can, but so can Aunt Harriet!

But you're ignoring the fact that neither Commissioner Gordon, or Aunt Harriet have Batman's Attacking ability.

Sure- if they hit they will kill a minion just as Batman does, but it's not in the same way or as often. It becomes that scene where batman is trying to rescue Aunt Harriet and Two Face yells "Kill them All- HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"

Batman rushes in and gets surrounded by minions. He's taking them out quickly and with basically one batsudo chop at a time, but then he looks over and sees Aunt Harriet being backed into a corner by a minion with a club- OH NO!!! He still has at least a round or two worth of minions to deal with, he can't get to her in time. Aunt Harriet is doomed! She's backing up and screaming, reaching for anything to defend herself with in her terrified state... Minion smiles evilly with that "You're dead now old lady!" evil minion smile... Batman is trying his best to get there....

And then at the last minute Aunt Harriet finds a pipe, or a pan, or a brick, and wildly swings it, and smacks the minion right in the temple.

Sure the minion died just as quickly as the ones fighting batman, but batman is surrounded by like 30 dead minions... whereas Harriet has one lucky shot.

It's also the scene where Batman is leading Aunt Harriet out of the warehouse, fighting minion after minion. He's beat up, worn down but soldiering on. Then he's distracted by something- looking the other way and a minion rushes up behind him with a spear/sword/chainsaw/vorpal rabbit- Oh no batman gonna die!!!!

But then at the last second Aunt May finds a pan... DONG!

Batman looks up at Aunt Harriet with that- "Whoa... didn't expect that one.." action hero look, grunts a thank you, and they move on.

The point is, ability to actually HIT the thing plays a part in how easy it is for you to kill it.

There are better ways to model Batman's prowess, IMHO, that don't cause this problem to arise.

Maybe, if someone finds them (and they don't add complications) then I'll take a look.

Right now minions give m ways to do things game wise, and ways to do things "scene wise" that I am enjoying.

 

[Fifth Element]

Canada. But I think your 1 hp minimum is a house rule. Or can you tell me where to find it in the RAW?

I think, given that you have asserted that you can cause damage of more than 0 hp but less than 1 hp, you should provide some support for your assertion. Extraordinary claims require... well you know. I suggest that fractional hp damage is an extraordinary claim. I don't believe there's ever been a monster or weapon or spell in D&D history that causes fractional hp damage.

I seem to recall in the 1E multiclassing rules that you held on to your fractional hit points (I may be mistaken here), but they only came into play when calculating your new hps when you leveled. They did not count as hp when taking damage.

Does the "always round down" rule still exist in 4E? If so, you can't cause fractions of a hp damage. (Note that that's not the only rule that could prevent such a thing from happening, just the first one that comes to mind.)

 

[Pbartender]

Really??! In 3e all bats, rats, tiny vipers and toads have 1hp by RAW. Assuming there is some consistent ratio, animals smaller than bats, rats, tiny snakes and toads should all have some fraction of a hp (how many hp does a normal mosquito or a butterfly have?).

Of course, in modern D&D all fractions are rounded down. You can't have a fractional hit point... You have either 0 or 1.

In other words, technically speaking, all creature with hit points have to have at least 1 hit point... Even an Itchypest Flea.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Does the "always round down" rule still exist in 4E?

Yes. PHB page 11. Btw, you can cause 0 points of damage with a successful attack (e.g. melee attack with STR 8), it was in the official FAQ IIRC.

EDIT: PHB page 58 has an example of this. It's not in the official FAQ, but it's mentioned in this thread (Rules you didn't realize).

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes. PHB page 11. Btw, you can cause 0 points of damage with a successful attack (e.g. melee attack with STR 8), it was in the official FAQ IIRC.

And of course, 0 hp damage is not enough to kill a minion, since they have 1 hp.

 

[jgbrowning]

Really??! In 3e all bats, rats, tiny vipers and toads have 1hp by RAW. Assuming there is some consistent ratio, animals smaller than bats, rats, tiny snakes and toads should all have some fraction of a hp (how many hp does a normal mosquito or a butterfly have?). Are you saying that in all of your games, every animal smaller than a house cat was on the verge of complete extinction? Were city sewers devoid of rats? Were swamps devoid of clouds of biting insects? It must have been nice for adventurers not having to worry about fleas in their bedrolls or lice in their helmets.

For that matter, were diseases completely absent from your worlds? If a creature as big as a rat has only 1hp and it's therefore impossible to imagine it surviving to any significant number in a world that "makes sense" then bacteria, viruses, fungi and other single-celled organisms must be 100% extinct, right?

You're always free to believe what you want to believe.

joe b.

 

[DaveMage]

@ joe b.: Thank you so much for sharing your perceptions on 4E design. It has helped me tremendously clarify from a design point of view *why* 4E was bothering me so much.

 

[Ourph]

You're always free to believe what you want to believe.

joe b.

I'll believe what you tell me, if you answer the question. You said creatures with 1hp didn't really exist in your games because you assumed they died off. I'm asking if this was really carried through to its logical simulationist conclusion or if you "fiated" aspects of that general rule that created a nonsensical world.

As I see it, there are two possible ways to get around the "too fragile to live" dilemma your method appears to create. Either ignore the "1hp creatures die" rule for creatures smaller than a house cat (i.e. make an exception) or assume that a toad, a mosquito and an amoeba all have at least 2hp (the same as a house cat or a weasel).

Neither one seems especially satisfactory, but maybe you used a different method that I'm not thinking of.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

I think it is important to remember, before the comparison to earlier versions' monsters with 1hp gets out of hand:

Minions don't have 1hp.

Their hit points are undefined. Any successful attack dispatches them, but an unsuccessful attack - especially a 'miss' effect - does not. If the miss effect states half damage or 2[W] instead of 3[W] or whatever, at that very moment, the minion has (half damage) +1 hit points, or 2[W]+1 hit points. They still don't have a single hit point, but at 0 hit points they are dispatched, so they have one more hit point than the damage that would have been dealt, because they can't be dispatched on a miss. When a miss effect is triggered again the following round, they will again have (half damage) +1 hit points, or 2[W]+1 hit points. In fact, a string of very unlucky rolls by a player would lead one to believe they have, in fact, infinite hit points, with a special condition that they are dispatched on any successful attack.

Thinking of them as '1hp monsters' is not accurate. They really are a mid-combat skill challenge. The mechanics are identical. The cognitive dissonance, as I see it, is in finding some rationalization as to why they are monsters. They aren't monsters, they are flat cubes, they are missing a dimension that defines every other opponent; namely, hit points.