Why is Eberron being pushed so hard?

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

The fact that the world was designed to appeal to "Johnny Playstation" (by resembling Final Fantasy) and support a MMORPG are two pretty damning criticisms of Eberron...

These features alone demonstrate why it will not appeal to many traditional fantasy enthusiasts.

But as a gimmick to attract new gamers? Sure, the kids will love it.

I don't understand why it can't appeal to both. Sure, if it has any minor magi-tech tropes, it can't appeal to the hard-core traditional gamers who insist that everything since Greyhawk sucks. And simply by being a role-playing game, it can't appeal to hardcore video gamers who don't play anything but Hideo Kojima's latest "classic." But the inability to appeal to a closed mind isn't necessarily a failure of the product.

Commercial does not necessarily equal bad, you know. There's a great tendency around here to assume that anything "the great unwashed masses" like is inferior. It's probably the only thing I dislike about ENWorld.

But in any case, IMO it is pretty clear what a "traditional" fantasy world looks like. Think about the inspiration behind DnD itself: works by Tolkien, Howard, Leiber, Vance, et al. Contrast that with the "Final Fantasy" character of Eberron, and the downright silliness of MMORPG worlds. The difference is clear.

Tolkien, Howard, and Vance are more self-similar than say Tolkien, Lineage, and WarCraft? Only if you look at the audience for each. Tolkien is an entirely different type of literature from Howard, Lieber, and Vance, and despite their similarities, I have trouble thinking of Vance as at all similar to Howard and Lieber (though to be fair, it hurt to read Vance so much that my experience is sorely limited).

And in what way is the WarCraft world, or that of Lineage, or even that of Dark Age of Camelot, any sillier than Vance's? Or that of D&D itself? Most MMORPG worlds (barring Everquest) are a LOT less silly than the world implied simply from reading the Monster Manual.

 

[Desdichado]

Commercial does not necessarily equal bad, you know. There's a great tendency around here to assume that anything "the great unwashed masses" like is inferior. It's probably the only thing I dislike about ENWorld.

Well, you know how it is. Those meddling moderators make us play all nice all the time, so we have to act superior to folks who aren't around, and all that.

 

[Nisarg]

Commercial does not necessarily equal bad, you know. There's a great tendency around here to assume that anything "the great unwashed masses" like is inferior. It's probably the only thing I dislike about ENWorld.

Well good golly make sure you NEVER go to RPG.net then. Enworld is downright populist by comparison.

Nisarg

 

[Spatula]

I admit I never really cared for it. I had my Forgotten Realms and my Dragonlance and wa content.

I then recently heard that thier is a new D&D MMORPG coming out and it's set in Eberron. What? Why? Greyhawk and Faerun have dedicated fans and tons of history that legions of fans are familiar with, so why the new kid on the block. I was gonna play it but not now... be playing EQ2 anyways =D

Also I saw a D&D RTS coming out, also set in Eberron, again! I'd love to have an RTS set in Faerun! But nah, New kid on the block again.

So, let's see... since the mid-80's, 95% of all D&D computer games have been set in the Realms: nearly all of SSI's "Gold Box" games, 100% of Bioware's games (Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights), 2/3 of Black Isle's games based on the Bioware engine (Icewind Dale 1 & 2)... I'm probably forgetting a few... It doesn't look like you have much to complain about, to me.

There's been exactly ONE computer game set in Greyhawk (Temple of Elemental Evil), and a year or two ago there were NONE. One relatively-recent Planescape game, 2 (?) Dark Sun games and 2 (?) Dragonlance games from the old Gold Box days...that's it for the non-FR D&D games (of the games that actually have a setting).

In any case, now you know how the die-hard Greyhawk fans felt during FR's time in the sun.

 

[Belegbeth]

... Commercial does not necessarily equal bad, you know. ...

Not NECESSARILY. Just generally!

Tolkien, Howard, and Vance are more self-similar than say Tolkien, Lineage, and WarCraft? Only if you look at the audience for each. Tolkien is an entirely different type of literature from Howard, Lieber, and Vance, and despite their similarities, I have trouble thinking of Vance as at all similar to Howard and Lieber (though to be fair, it hurt to read Vance so much that my experience is sorely limited).

And in what way is the WarCraft world, or that of Lineage, or even that of Dark Age of Camelot, any sillier than Vance's? Or that of D&D itself? Most MMORPG worlds (barring Everquest) are a LOT less silly than the world implied simply from reading the Monster Manual.

I am not sure what your point here is (aside from unfairly criticizing Vance -- try reading his Lyonnesse novels, they are as good as fantasy gets!). Whatever the differences between, say, Howard and Tolkien (and yes there are huge differences), they both treat magic as something mysterious, dangerous, and rare, and they both describe recognizably 'non-modern' or 'non-contemporary' worlds. With respect to magic, DnD (IMO) already renders it into 'pseudo-technology' -- Eberron only pushes that unfortunate feature even farther. And one feature of Eberron that many fanboys are touting over at the WotC boards is that they can run "modern" adventurers, and their characters can have "modern" attitudes and abilities in it.

Anyway, back to the question of the thread: the reason why Eberron is being pushed so hard is that it combines a number of features that appeal to the 'new generation' of gamers, viz. those weaned on 'Final Fantasy' and similar video games, with their rapid power-ups, gimmicky magic/tech items, and so forth. (Eberron does this quite well -- it is a fine beast. But it is the species of the beast that I dislike.)

 

[Henry]

Well, you know how it is. Those meddling moderators make us play all nice all the time, so we have to act superior to folks who aren't around, and all that.

Yeah, those fussbudgets, with their meddling and their pedantry. Well, I say to them, KISS OFF!


?!?!

Oh, sorry... Stockholm flashback.

 

[Olorin]

As Destil said, different company, though I didn't realize Hasbro was the parent company, though it explains a bit.

The current incarnation of Atari is regarded as being less than developer-friendly by many, and I definitely find them to be less than customer-friendly. Though not much worse so than the original Atari by the end. Right before the video game crash, Atari was a nightmare.

Just a note, AFAIK Hasbro has nothing to do with Atari. The Atari name was purchased by Infrogrames a while ago and to capitalize on the name recognition, Infogrames changed their name to Atari.

Atari/Infogrames is a D&D licensee.

[edit] I see that Hasbro purchased the Atari name in 1998, and Infogrames bought it from Hasbro in 2002.

 

[Nisarg]

Well, coincidentally I have just gotten my copy of Eberron... my initial opinion is not exactly glowing.

Its a lot of what I worried about. First of all, the setting seems to suffer from identity crisis. Is it "medieval"? Is it "swashbuckling"? is it "pulp action"? Is it "steampunk"?

One of the things I had hoped about Eberron is that it would positively differ from FR by showing how you CANNOT have a "medieval" culture when you have magic so powerful that it mimics industrial technology. Unfortunately, Eberron doesn't do this at all. Sure, we get flying cities and mobile cities, and magickal trains, etc. etc. but the author goes out of his way to say its still a "Medieval" setting. IT CAN'T BE. As soon as you transform a medieval society that much it would not be medieval anymore. Why didn't they have the guts to make it a kind of medieval-esque industrialized society, an enlightenment, or at least a renaissance? Oh wait, right, because "medieval" sells better than any of those things... part of the "trying to be all things to all people" syndrome.

Regarding contents: god damn, it really IS RIFTS. It literally says its got everything in it. I'm surprised there are no Jedi (yet).

On a plus note, I'm pleased to note that the Warforged are NOT as horrifically overpowered as I thought they would be. As it turns out they aren't the "dragon hatchlings" of the Eberron world, just the "Glitter boys".

Oh, and it has psionics. I hate psionics. Also, how stupid is that? Taking the new "flagship" setting for D&D and basically forcing anyone who wants to play in it to have to get the psionics handbook? way to be accessible.

Now, another plus side, I do like what they do with Clerics. Or rather, what they do with deities.

Action points: like force points, but more complicated and less relevant to the setting. Hoo-ray.

Is it just me, or does the dragon-marked stuff and the names of the feats seem like blatant rip-offs of Exalted? That's not a good thing, btw, its enough for me to be totally turned off the setting right there. I don't think its a winning strategy in general, though: if a gamer wanted to be an Exalted fan, he'd play Exalted, and if he already is an Exalted fan, he'll play Exalted. Running around imitating Exalted is only going to turn off the people who don't like exalted, and not win many fans from the ones who ALREADY have exalted.

The prestige classes are broken, but then, ALL prestige classes are broken and have been for a very very long time in D&D. They went from being about reflecting specific cultural groups and specialized paths, to being "ADVANCED EXTRA POWERFUL classes" quicker than a gamer can down a mountain dew. They're part of the overall power creep that is infesting D&D 3rd, that will eventually render the game unplayable, and that Eberron seems to embrace with all the joy of a suicidally depressed guy embracing an oncoming freight train (or should that be magic train?).

Oh, and the "RIFTS Dragon hatchling" of Eberron? The Warforged Juggernaut. I knew my initial hopefulness had to have a catch.
Great. So you don't get to start as a powergamers wet dream, you have to wait till at least level 5 to get there.

And if Warforged Juggernauts are the "dragon hatchlings" of Eberron, I guess Weretouched Masters are the Dog Boys?

The stuff on the Planes of Eberron are ok, but I have to wonder why they couldn't have just used the Manual of the Planes instead, and added more material on some other topic? its also unfortunate that while you need the Psionics book to fully play Eberron you specifically can't use the Manual of the Planes, a sourcebook I actually like. How dumb is that? And yeah, I know they say its optional, but its right there all over the book, and hell there's an entire CONTINENT ("Riedra") that you pretty much need psionics for.

The actual world (ie the geography) is ok, but adds to the setting confusions in some way.. you have nations like Breland, its a monarchic parliamentary democracy, with a capital full of SKYSCRAPERS, a "lightning rail train", and a giant mobile town-fortress, but its "Medieval".
Yeah.
Ok.
And this isn't some wierd far-off place that you might find in the distant corner of the FR. No, its the place the book TELLS YOU TO START YOUR GAME. Ie. the most normal place available.

The more I read it the more I think Eberron would have been a great sourcebook, for D20 MODERN. To make it "medieval" requires such a level of suspension of disbelief that your spleen would explode in the mere attempt.

Another plus side: the "dms tips" section is mercifully short, though in no way inspiring.

You'll note in this review I've skipped the standard "crunchy" spells, items, and monsters (as if using every monster ever made in any WoTC book ever wasn't enough) sections.

In concluding, I would have to say I'm surprised that the writers of Eberron don't appear to thank their chief influence, Kevin Siembieda, anywhere. I also have to say that Eberron to me shows very clearly what the weaknesses of a "pre-fab" setting are.. in other words, when you let a group of marketing professionals vet the setting to figure out exactly how to make it as profitable, demographic-satisfiable, spin-offable, happy-meal-toyable, as possible. Eberron screams "pre-fab" in a bad way. Not even in the Monkees yea-they're-fake-but-they're-still-likeable way, no.. we're talking "New Kids On the Block" bad here.
I'm a firm believer in giving the playing public what it wants, in populism in other words, but I don't think that translates into creating a setting meant to offer every possible aspect of D&D in one horrifying pastiche of broken unbelievability.

My initial concern with Eberron was that it was going to try to be "wierd for wierd's sake", one of those settings that tries so hard to not be bog-standard medieval fantasy that it ruptures something and becomes too wierd to live. Instead, the result is something even worse: a setting that has clearly ruptured something, is clearly too wierd to live, and is freakily trying to insist that its perfectly normal medieval fantasy at the same time. Like the guy with the gaping chest wound with tentacles sticking out of it insisting to you that "no he's perfectly fine, just a normal guy". What's more, he then goes on to try to insist to you that not only is he still "normal", but that having arms and tentacles and a gaping chest wound all at once is somehow a great thing.

May the gaming gods have mercy on our souls.

Nisarg

 

[Brisk-sg]

I just want to point out to those who say WOTC is putting all of their eggs in one basket that Forgotten Realms has as many products coming out as Eberron is. Video game wise they have Neverwinter Nights 2 and supposedly Baldur's Gate 3 (read this on gamespy last week, said it would be revealed in the next issue of PC game I believe) in developement for the PC. They likely have several console games in developement as well.

They have 9 Forgotten Realms novels listed for 2005, and one Accessory for the 1st quarter so far.

Eberron on the other hand has 2 Novels, 1 Accessory, and 1 Adventure.

Doesn't seem like they are abandoning Forgotten Realms to me, and I seriously doubt they will as long as it is profitable.

Forgotten Realms has had all of the eggs in its basket for a while now, I don't think it is unreasonable for some of those eggs to be shared with other campaigns.

 

[Incenjucar]

1) I have no issue with WotC making a profit. My issue is that art doesn't sell anymore because so few have an appreciation for art, in the same way that a beautiful work by someone nobody has ever heard of is automatically worth less than Picasso's spit in a jar, and a setting that has 'power ups' is going to get more press than a setting with complex, well-considered backgrounds, economies, and linguistics (does anyone even give their fantasy characters novel accents that aren't 'ye olde'?).

2) I'll agree that Eberron is like Exalted, especially in appearance. Seriously, crack open both books, and you'll find they feel very very similar, and even have the same little 'comic scenes' and such, with the same general art styles.