Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[DemonLord57]

A few things:
Why does everyone decide to compare Meteor Storm and Astral Storm? How about comparing Meteor Storm and Godstrike. One is much better, and I'll give you a hint, it's not Godstrike. Every level has crappy options and good options, and that's going to continue. As has been said (and should be obvious), only the best power in any level matters.

Legion's Hold is (IMO) the best Wizard lvl 29 daily by far. I believe it is hugely better than Astral Storm. Yes, Astral Storm does more damage, and yes, it is a large AoE (but not as large as Legion's Hold), but it doesn't do anything other than damage. Is it a good daily? Hell yes. Is it as good as completely disabling anything you hit for at least one turn in a burst 20? NO! Stun is essentially giving at least one full turn to your allies, including yourself.

How is the ridiculous advantage of this overlooked? 4d10 more damage and 2d10 in subsequent rounds when using a minor action? Ask yourself which is more valuable for control: 1) depriving opponents of actions or choices, or 2) doing damage. If you answered 2, congratulations, you have no idea what control is. Doing damage is an extremely inefficient way of trying to exert control over your enemies. Death is the ultimate debuff, but with the padded sumo effect, death is not something that is achieved quickly. Depriving your opponents of multiple actions is ridiculously more valuable than doing some extra damage.

This is why I say Firestorm is overrated by many of you, and that Evard's Black Tentacles is clearly the better control spell: because it is control. Unless dealing with minions or very low level creatures, damage does not exert control in any timely manner, and thus is mostly ignored by a true controller.

 

[WhatGravitas]

This says to me that a wizard is a better controller overall, but a cleric who really tries can come close.

And that's role-infringement. Which wouldn't be bad, if the wizard wouldn't be so firmly in his controller role. The cleric is a leader that can try to be a controller occasionally - but the wizard is pretty much a controller - his damage will never get close to that of a striker (since even the cleric is occasional better at it), and the defender and leader roles are basically completely barred (with the notable exception of Mass Fly).

And I think that's the crux of the matter: Cleric can go controller if pressed, wizards can go... well, only controller.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Chowder]

A few things:
Legion's Hold is (IMO) the best Wizard lvl 29 daily by far.

I agree that, on balance, the best Wizard lvl 29 controller daily (Legion's Hold) is better than Astral Storm. However, that still doesn't explain why Meteor Swarm is so ridiculously bad compared to Astral Storm. Really, I wouldn't expect a Wizard to ever use Meteor Swarm when Legion's Hold is available, and when you have such a situation, it means that something is broken...

-Chowder

 

[Larrin]

I have a theory on why some wizard spells don't seem to really out class clerics's prayers on some fronts.

When a cleric chooses a daily prayer, he'd better choose one he can use, and it'd better be pretty, its the only one he gets.

A wizard gets to choose 2 or three dailies. Meteor swarm won't out class astral storm. But the option to have meteor storm OR another spell (legions hold, or whatever that other wizard 29 is) kinda makes up for it.

A cleric with astral storm will only have the choice to do damage, so it'd better be pretty swanky damage.

A wizard can just do damage OR he can do a legions hold on his foes OR maybe even option 3. I can see designers feeling that these 2-3 options easily make the wizards 29th level daily equal to a really good clerics level 29 daily.

Just a theory, not claiming it actually WORKS, but i can see a designer using this sort of logic.

 

[Zurai]

A few things:
Why does everyone decide to compare Meteor Storm and Astral Storm? How about comparing Meteor Storm and Godstrike. One is much better, and I'll give you a hint, it's not Godstrike. Every level has crappy options and good options, and that's going to continue. As has been said (and should be obvious), only the best power in any level matters.

Meteor Swarm isn't compared to Godstrike because Godstrike isn't a control ability, it's a striker ability (and yes, it's rather amusing that Clerics get zero Leader abilities at their top tier). That's like comparing Fireball to Cure Light Wounds - completely irrelevant.

They compare Astral Storm to Meteor Swarm because the spells carry out exactly the same function: deal a lot of damage to a lot of creatures. The Wizard is supposed to be King at that, because dealing a lot of damage to a lot of creatures is one of the definitions 4E uses for Controller.

Yes, Legion's Hold is a better crowd control spell than Astral Storm. Maybe you don't want to play a crowd control wizard. One of the two types of wizard recommended by the PHB is the War Wizard that focuses on damage damage damage!! and, frankly, since that fits within his defined role, he should be clearly better at it than any non-Controller class.

 

[DemonLord57]

Meteor Swarm isn't compared to Godstrike because Godstrike isn't a control ability, it's a striker ability (and yes, it's rather amusing that Clerics get zero Leader abilities at their top tier). That's like comparing Fireball to Cure Light Wounds - completely irrelevant.

They compare Astral Storm to Meteor Swarm because the spells carry out exactly the same function: deal a lot of damage to a lot of creatures. The Wizard is supposed to be King at that, because dealing a lot of damage to a lot of creatures is one of the definitions 4E uses for Controller.

Yes, Legion's Hold is a better crowd control spell than Astral Storm. Maybe you don't want to play a crowd control wizard. One of the two types of wizard recommended by the PHB is the War Wizard that focuses on damage damage damage!! and, frankly, since that fits within his defined role, he should be clearly better at it than any non-Controller class.

Okay, I guess if we take the PHB definition of a controller to be true, then yes, the cleric can, at least on some levels, be a better "controller" in that aspect.

However, I don't consider dealing damage in an AoE control unless it kills or imposes another very nasty side-effect. The wizard is much better than the cleric at my definition of control.

Also, I was being somewhat facetious when I asked why they kept comparing the two, and then comparing it to Godstrike. My point was basically that some powers are clearly better than others, essentially regardless of circumstances. IMO, there is almost no situation where I'd prefer using Godstrike to Meteor Storm, assuming the proper stats in both circumstances. You can potentially do more damage with Godstrike, but only on a single creature, and even then, not very much more damage.

Legion's Hold does a bit less damage (6d10~33 avg) for a ridiculously better effect, and the fact that so many people seem to ignore this annoys me. Even against a single creature, Legion's Hold is better. Why? It deprives them of their action. This is essential to winning. Many people try to deprive enemies of their actions simply by doing as much damage as fast as possible. That is one way, but it takes a long time, and they get many chances to hurt you in between. I'd rather keep the number of actions they can take to a minimum. After all, the rest of the party is better suited for hitting individual things for damage. If they can provide debuffs to the enemy, that's great too. It's all about action advantage.

 

[WOLead]

Well, what about comparing Astral Storm to say, Closing Spell? Gained 9 levels earlier for choosing Battle Mage as your Paragon Path. Is there a reason Archspell or Spell Recall of Archmage won't work with Daily Spells gained from a Paragon Path?

How about options with Meteor Swarm? Such as a Wizard/Spellstorm Mage/Archmage at level 29 can throw down 3 Meteor Swarms back to back turns? Choosing to dump all three on the same spot, or spread them out of 3 Burst 5 areas.

What about earlier level AoE style combos? Say Wall of Fire and Elemental Maw in the same turn with an action point. That can be extremely painful.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Well, what about comparing Astral Storm to say, Closing Spell? Gained 9 levels earlier for choosing Battle Mage as your Paragon Path. Is there a reason Archspell or Spell Recall of Archmage won't work with Daily Spells gained from a Paragon Path?

No - and that makes Meteor Swarm even more piddly. However, Closing Spell is nice, but has two huge flaws compared to Firestorm - very conditional and less useful area. I don't think it stacks up well, unless you're out of other spells and in the midst of a group of monsters - but then, if this happens, you are still worse than the cleric simply because you are too squishy in that situation - not enough hit points.

How about options with Meteor Swarm? Such as a Wizard/Spellstorm Mage/Archmage at level 29 can throw down 3 Meteor Swarms back to back turns? Choosing to dump all three on the same spot, or spread them out of 3 Burst 5 areas.

Or he could just use Legion's Hold, which *is* a better control spell. Furthermore, I don't think the special abilities of the Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies should influence the power choice that much. If they're so powerful that the entire class has to be changed, they're too powerful and destroy design space - because if they're already taken into account, it's hard to create more Paths/Destinies later on.

What about earlier level AoE style combos? Say Wall of Fire and Elemental Maw in the same turn with an action point. That can be extremely painful.

Well, yes - but then you could also talk about Blade Barrier + Firestorm. Also very painful, because you can potentially force people to stay within the firestorm. And if people don't do that, you can still push them back with Thunderous Word (which, by the way, does more "controllish" movement of enemies than most wizards).

Cheers, LT.

 

[AtomicPope]

For the same reason that Clerics have the best 29th level area damage spell too? Compare Astral Storm with Meteor Swarm and remind me which one is supposed to be the controller and which is supposed to be the leader, eh?

Yeah I wondered the very same thing. It's been bugging me for a while now. I think it's in need of a house ruling

 

[AtomicPope]

No - and that makes Meteor Swarm even more piddly. However, Closing Spell is nice, but has two huge flaws compared to Firestorm - very conditional and less useful area. I don't think it stacks up well, unless you're out of other spells and in the midst of a group of monsters - but then, if this happens, you are still worse than the cleric simply because you are too squishy in that situation - not enough hit points.
Cheers, LT.

Actually, check out Arcane Rejuvenation. It makes them much sturdier than clerics, especially with Toughness.