Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

[Chaltab]

i mean, i don't think i've had a fight actually worth fighting at level 10 or higher that didn't have at least some enemy combatants that could deal with flying characters, and level 10 is twice the level you need to be to pick up fly (which is flight for an entire hour). i think letting level 10+ characters just fly would be fine.

Minor nitpick Fly lasts for 10 minutes.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Minor nitpick Fly lasts for 10 minutes.

...i was thinking of something very different, then...

 

[James Gasik]

I would prefer that Level Up uses something like how the 3.5 Raptorans functioned, where they start with limited flying abilities that gradually become full flight when the level is reached that flight is more reasonable:

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I would prefer that Level Up uses something like how the 3.5 Raptorans functioned, where they start with limited flying abilities that gradually become full flight when the level is reached that flight is more reasonable:
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[lichmaster]

I mean, this thread was specifically posted in LU, which should be about "Advanced" 5e.
To me it being "advanced" has nothing to do with having a gazillion archetypes, spells or maneuvers and everything to do about integrated systems and mechanics. 5e has nothing for vehicles, stronghold, crafting etc while LU does.
It only seems natural to me that instead of following the 5e approach of arbitrarily limiting flight, LU should have the option of prolonged natural flight with added mechanics and considerations, including equipment, aerial combat and movement, worldbuilding etc.

Also, I'm personally moving away from the idea of "challenging" my players or their characters. Even if that was my goal, 5e core material has amply demonstrated to be fundamentally inadequate from a mechanical pov (CR of creatures and encounter guidelines are almost laughable, relative balance of spells and features is quite a mess etc). LU significantly improves over that, but can't solve everything. And this for me isn't even a problem, since the idea itself that I need to challenge players or character as run its course for me. Much better to have verisimilitude in the setting and the story and have the players (and me!) enjoy what we're creating together. If this means that normal encounters won't pose any threat, this means that the setting itself will have to adapt and evolve in whatever direction makes sense. More often than not this results in the players themselves seeking challenges instead of me dumping challenges on them.

 

[xiphumor]

I mean, this thread was specifically posted in LU, which should be about "Advanced" 5e.
To me it being "advanced" has nothing to do with having a gazillion archetypes, spells or maneuvers and everything to do about integrated systems and mechanics. 5e has nothing for vehicles, stronghold, crafting etc while LU does.
It only seems natural to me that instead of following the 5e approach of arbitrarily limiting flight, LU should have the option of prolonged natural flight with added mechanics and considerations, including equipment, aerial combat and movement, worldbuilding etc.

Also, I'm personally moving away from the idea of "challenging" my players or their characters. Even if that was my goal, 5e core material has amply demonstrated to be fundamentally inadequate from a mechanical pov (CR of creatures and encounter guidelines are almost laughable, relative balance of spells and features is quite a mess etc). LU significantly improves over that, but can't solve everything. And this for me isn't even a problem, since the idea itself that I need to challenge players or character as run its course for me. Much better to have verisimilitude in the setting and the story and have the players (and me!) enjoy what we're creating together. If this means that normal encounters won't pose any threat, this means that the setting itself will have to adapt and evolve in whatever direction makes sense. More often than not this results in the players themselves seeking challenges instead of me dumping challenges on them.

Ya know, you could always write those rules and then pitch them to the GPG. Or just self-publish.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This completely ignores the fact that PCs have more of a range of responses than any number of potential opponent group. There are games that are like that, but a routine fantasy game isn't it.

I suppose it does a little (although why should NPCs have less scope than PCs?), but verisimilitude is important to me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well all of this came about because level up limits flight, and people were saying it shouldn’t because “flights not that strong”

I guess the designers disagreed.

Games are what you make of them. I'm happy to change the rules to suit my preferences, whether that means adding logical restrictions or removing illogical ones (by my own and my group's judgement of what those are of course).

 

[Steampunkette]

Yes, I meant planetar. It was late, my bad. I get very frustrated with the anti-PC flight people because the restrictions they want to impose are so punishing as to make me not even want to bother, which just feels like... why? Have you actually let players just have flight without those restrictions to see if anything actually breaks? My other problem is when the PC flight options come from heritages that have been adopted from monster stat blocks, but at least for o5e, the playable version has been heavily nerfed, which is just so stupid. If you have to nerf it (or otherwise alter its basic physiology) to make it playable, then it just shouldn't be playable. I don't know if A5e has this problem as much, but it definitely has a notable lack of good flight options and the Homebrew and Hacking supplement places way, way too much weight on player flight when creating a heritage.

Instead of placing obnoxious restrictions on player flight because 5% of players might possibly abuse it, I think it would be better if it was just allowed, but with a section in Trials & Treasures dedicated to advice on dealing with it. Things like:

• 8 ft ceilings for indoor spaces. This isn't even restrictive, this is just how 99% of ceilings are, with the exceptions primarily being mansions, seats of power, and places of worship. This isn't a perfect solution, you can still fly over pitfall traps, but it does remove any combat benefit to flight as you'd always be within melee reach. Glyphs of warding also exist and if you treat them like a proximity mine (which you can), flying creatures can still trigger them.
• If you're worried about players just flying over walls, don't forget to place guards to protect those walls (the walls are there to protect something, right?). In a world where flying creatures are a known concern, it's reasonable for them to have bows, nets, or to have spellcasters.
• Remember to also let players have fun and sometimes put things down that you know they can just bypass so they feel good about their choices. You can also use this to your advantage so they become overconfident if you feel like sneaking something on them later.
• Think about the type of game you are playing. In a roleplay-heavy game like I typically play, there are so few opportunities for flight to even be relevant let alone break anything. On the flip side, if you're running gritty realism, then yeah, maybe flight doesn't make sense at all.
• Certainly when designing flying heritages, think about wingspan. I had an aasimar paladin who later became part angel and got real wings, but in order to carry not just his size but also his weight, those wings were like 20 feet. They simply weren't practical anywhere but outdoors and they required custom armor, clothing, etc. Magical flight... breaks a lot of these and probably just shouldn't be a thing for PCs, but maybe that's just me.

I understand (believe me I do) that having written rules for things helps at tables where certain players are prone to exploiting rules and so just having suggestions like this doesn't always work, but it also feels like the percentage of people who would actually do that is so very, very small and we're still designing around them. Drags everyone else down.

Back to the OP's original point, I know that in at least one case, the restrictions placed on flight were just for realism. Most real flying creatures can't hover for long, if at all, so placing restrictions on how long they can hover makes sense. Similarly, limiting how heavy of armor they can wear makes sense not just in terms of weight (though weight is already covered by strength score) but also mobility. So there are some good reasons to restrict flight.

I mean...

I can apply some broadly limiting rules that don't apply to every situation so that flight is useful while it has drawbacks to things like Stealth Checks and Carrying Capacity to rein in some of the weirdness and keep it strong without being overpowered...

OR I can come up with a reason to constantly "No, you don't get to fly" or "Yes you can fly, but it doesn't help you at all because all the enemies are archers" every time someone wants to use their heritage flight by your stated positions in this thread.

... like the three rules I posted could be applied to your "Roleplay Heavy Game" and be -less- limiting than the stuff you keep throwing out. But you outright state that flight doesn't even really come up in such games so why even worry about it being a heavily ruled thing in other people's games? Much less your own, where it just doesn't happen at all?

I'm gonna go ahead and throw out a thing for everyone to chew on that is incredibly broadly applicable:

Target your players STRENGTHS not their weaknesses.

You've got a guy who is built to be the tankiest boi on the battlefield? Give him that. Make battlefields with lots of enemies to swing at your tankity tank to help validate them. Make sure there's plenty left over for when Ms. Fireball the wizard drops her AoE on a squad or two, though, so both players get to feel powerful.

And then make doing those things a choice that has consequences.

Yes, the fighter can try and tank everyone in the room, but if he doesn't get to the portal, too, bad things happen, and he's got to choose between the thing he loves (Big swarms of bad guys uselessly plinking against his impenetrable armor) and the task at hand. Or, more appropriately, using his cool tankiness to GET to the portal and protect it by shifting the battlefield focus onto him.

Make Ms. Fireball have a choice between the big flashy AoE you know she loves to do and giving support that could mean life or death through spells that -don't- do a ton of damage, like a wall of stone spell to keep the baddies 'herded' around Tankboi.

Do the same thing with your flying characters. They WANT to fly. So let them fly. It's why they made flying characters in the first place.

But make it a -choice-.

Yes, they can fly up to the BBEG to sneak attack while Tankboi and Ms. Fireballs are dealing with the army. But they -can't- just carry the bard up to the BBEG's platform to give themselves advantage/flanking/sneak attack long term. And they won't be able to "Sneakfly" because of the disadvantage.

So maybe they use their flight to play harrier instead of trying to go toe to toe with the BBEG while the rest of the party is occupied. Maybe they slip in to help the bard by sneak attacking the guards on the bridge to help them get up the stairs. Maybe they try to push the BBEG off the platform as a small creature bullrushing a medium sized creature. Maybe they try to steal some important item instead of getting into a stabfest...

Let them fly with a few broad limitations to flight and put them into situations where choice matters, and flight isn't a specific factor, just a method of getting from A to B.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, this thread was specifically posted in LU, which should be about "Advanced" 5e.
To me it being "advanced" has nothing to do with having a gazillion archetypes, spells or maneuvers and everything to do about integrated systems and mechanics. 5e has nothing for vehicles, stronghold, crafting etc while LU does.
It only seems natural to me that instead of following the 5e approach of arbitrarily limiting flight, LU should have the option of prolonged natural flight with added mechanics and considerations, including equipment, aerial combat and movement, worldbuilding etc.

Also, I'm personally moving away from the idea of "challenging" my players or their characters. Even if that was my goal, 5e core material has amply demonstrated to be fundamentally inadequate from a mechanical pov (CR of creatures and encounter guidelines are almost laughable, relative balance of spells and features is quite a mess etc). LU significantly improves over that, but can't solve everything. And this for me isn't even a problem, since the idea itself that I need to challenge players or character as run its course for me. Much better to have verisimilitude in the setting and the story and have the players (and me!) enjoy what we're creating together. If this means that normal encounters won't pose any threat, this means that the setting itself will have to adapt and evolve in whatever direction makes sense. More often than not this results in the players themselves seeking challenges instead of me dumping challenges on them.

I like your attitude. I struggle with that issue myself.