D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Unfortunately, as seen here, Paizo forgot to give large objects a modifier for Perception, outside of the old +2/-2 "favorable vs. unfavorable conditions". I know it's a silly debate, but you'd be surprised how often people want to impose penalties to see things at a distance that normal people can see just fine, lol.
Well, yes, but I'm also constantly surprised just how many people are trying to use the game rules as a de facto physics engine. It seems a lot more obvious to me that they're to be used to resolve game-related and in-scope/genre for the game issues and not, say, seeing the freakin' moon.

Whether the range for a long bow or heavy crossbow is excessive or not tends to be more of a campaign-based issue than a significant rule issue. If you're playing in a setting where you can realistically have engagements starting 200 yards or more away, then it becomes relevant. If you're not, why would you sweat it?
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Unfortunately, as seen here, Paizo forgot to give large objects a modifier for Perception, outside of the old +2/-2 "favorable vs. unfavorable conditions". I know it's a silly debate, but you'd be surprised how often people want to impose penalties to see things at a distance that normal people can see just fine, lol.

As far as comments about "not shooting at long range targets you can't be sure what they are", that's never stopped DM-controlled enemies from attacking me at long range, lol.
I wouldn't be surprised at all. I've read waaaaay too many super crazy stories about people doing or believing things that boggle the mind. :p

I'm also not surprised at the DMs shooting you anyway at long range.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Well, yes, but I'm also constantly surprised just how many people are trying to use the game rules as a de facto physics engine. It seems a lot more obvious to me that they're to be used to resolve game-related and in-scope/genre for the game issues and not, say, seeing the freakin' moon.

Whether the range for a long bow or heavy crossbow is excessive or not tends to be more of a campaign-based issue than a significant rule issue. If you're playing in a setting where you can realistically have engagements starting 200 yards or more away, then it becomes relevant. If you're not, why would you sweat it?
Most of the time, long range isn't viable. Every so often it comes up. There was a string of Living Forgotten Realms mods in the 4e era where I noticed the battles were set up where a group of bow users could utterly dominate, but there weren't a lot of those around (most ranged classes had powers to attack with, and weren't using actual ranged weaponry); at this time, I joked about how a party of Rangers (and/or Seekers) would likely perform quite well. And I still see it occasionally in canned adventures to this day, but nowhere near with regularity; the last three times it came up were, in fact-

An Adventure League mod about defending a town.

A Skulls and Shackles campaign which had a lot of ship combat.

A setpiece battle where we were on an airship, attacking another airship.

I imagine a Spelljammer campaign would really put ranged combat to the test; I remember playing Spelljammer in 2e where the Dwarf melee Fighter wanted to be fired at an enemy ship via catapult in order to actually fight anything!

So the kinds of circumstances where an archer can dominate play aren't common, as most battles take place where you need to be relatively close, so this isn't often a problem. The question of whether, when it does come up, if it needs to be houseruled or merely allowed to be a moment where the archers shine, is one for the ages. Arguments can be made for or against; I tend to be fine if someone gets their moment in the sun, but I do understand the frustration of a DM who watches their "tough" encounter implode because of some X factor they didn't (or couldn't reasonably) account for.

In the past ten years or so especially, newer players seem to think outdoors encounters are basically like Skyrim, which has huge tracts of flat land, and enemies who are easily identifiable at long range, so one guy can always snipe a couple bandits off the roof of that abandoned Imperial Fort (Tamriel is lousy with them, and they always end up inhabited by unsavory types, lol) before they mobilize and take cover.

What kinds of shots can be realistically made are always in contention as well; one DM could say that they feel PC's are unmatched professionals, akin to Marine Corps Snipers. Another DM could say that PC's are nothing but country bumpkins who picked up weapons and are lucky to hit the broad side of a barn.

Different viewpoints and playstyles, you can't say one is right or wrong, as long as everyone is having a good time.

Personally, I see the long ranges of bows as an occasional, if minor, bonus to non-magical characters; ranged attacks from spellcasters are usually at reasonable ranges, and even the Warlock, who has likely one of the best at-will ranged attacks in the game has to invest to get half the range of a longbow (though without disadvantage, lucky jerks).
 

Whether the range for a long bow or heavy crossbow is excessive or not tends to be more of a campaign-based issue than a significant rule issue. If you're playing in a setting where you can realistically have engagements starting 200 yards or more away, then it becomes relevant. If you're not, why would you sweat it?
It's not just about engagement starting range. If you have an extremely long-range capability, then:

1.) Breaking contact (successful retreat) becomes a de facto victory condition in many cases: victory via Expeditious Retreat. I. e. you don't have to kill the Tarrasque right now, you just have to Dimension Door away, whistle up some Phantom Steeds, and set up an defensive position outside the city walls that the Tarrasque is threatening to attack. Many DMs and players find this less satisfying than being forced to win the fight here and now.

2.) Splitting your force and keeping the major offensive component out of range lets you achieve favorable loss ratios: victory via Dodge + sniper overwatch. Normally defensive tactics like Dodge, Blade Ward, Invisibility, etc. just cause your foe to switch targets to someone who isn't doing that, making them a net loss of action economy. That doesn't happen when the other targets are out of enemy range and have a high damage output. You can have an AC 21(+5) fighter/abjuror approach the unknown humanoids to within 30', without having the entire party 30' when the hostilities start.

Both cases presuppose favorable terrain exists somewhere in the game world (i.e. wouldn't work against an enemy who can burrow or fly at great speed).
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Many DMs and players find this less satisfying than being forced to win the fight here and now.
Isn't that kind of a THEM problem? If they find that kind of action less satisfying, then they shouldn't do it. Does that need to be "fixed" for them by reducing long ranges for everybody?
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
If they know you are hostile, then they will not close but seek to evade out of range.

Or try to find an approach that doesn't involve charging across open field at you. Even in otherwise open terrain there are often things like gulleys or brush lines somewhere. And anything aggressive that operates primarily in arid plains or the like has solutions to these problems, or doesn't operate there.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
To be fair though, it would be hard for an owl bear or an ogre to lie down. But, I’m also trying to think is a large or larger monster that you would reasonably encounter in the wide open in broad daylight and I’m struggling.
Some fliers are possible. But as I noted, all they need to do is get altitude above your range until they're ready to dive and then come in out of the sun. Good luck with that.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Isn't that kind of a THEM problem? If they find that kind of action less satisfying, then they shouldn't do it. Does that need to be "fixed" for them by reducing long ranges for everybody?

There are plenty of people who find when a game's mechanical encouragement and what's fun at odds less than satisfying.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
There are plenty of people who find when a game's mechanical encouragement and what's fun at odds less than satisfying.
well yes, but I am not sure that this problem (whatever it is) is amenable to a mechanical solution. I am curiously as to what the OP would like to propose as a suitable mechanical solution.
 

Andvari

Hero
The ranger in my Pathfinder 2E group has the Far Shot feat, which lets him shoot his crossbow from 240 feet before incurring a to hit penalty. When encounter distance isn't a given, I use the following BECMI-based chart to generate the distance. Outdoors, this means he'll sometimes get off a free shot or two.

encounter_distances.png


Fireball also has 500 ft. range in the game, but an appropriate scenario for that sort of range hasn't come up yet.
 

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