Why no Quickened spontanious spells?

[hong]

Its as if they meant to say you can't quicken an already "meta-magic feated" spontaniously spell, e.g. Maximised. But the logic doesn't stand up for a non meta-magic feated spell, e.g. Bog standard magic missle.

Glass: exacly my point. I didn't know the posh phrase for it though. Nice...

non se·qui·tur ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nn skw-tr, -tr)
n.
An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

A bog-standard magic missile does not have metamagic applied to it.

A Quickened magic missile does have metamagic applied to it.

Notice the difference.

 

[glass]

The asterisked section is fine. It's simply clarifying that you have two opposing effects going on (Quicken: casting time reduced to free action; spontaneous metamagic: casting time increased to a FRA), and the latter takes precedence over the former.

Again, we know. The question is 'so?'.

Hypothetical situation: sorcerer cast quickened Summon Monster spell. Quicken spell drops it to a standard action, metamagic rule increases it to an FRA. This is fine by the asterisked text, but falls foul of the specific prohibition. Therefore, the asterisked text cannot be a reason for the prohibition.

Any clearer now?


glass.

 

[hong]

Again, we know. The question is 'so?'.

Indeed.

Hypothetical situation: sorcerer cast quickened Summon Monster spell. Quicken spell drops it to a standard action, metamagic rule increases it to an FRA. This is fine by the asterisked text, but falls foul of the specific prohibition. Therefore, the asterisked text cannot be a reason for the prohibition.

So?

Why did you believe that the asterisked text was the reason for the prohibition?

 

[wighair]

I'm re-reading this and my head is fizzing.

On first reading I assumed that sorcerers can't use Quicken. full stop. never.
I just thought the logic explaining this was screwed.

Now, I'm thinking it means to say a sorcerer can't Quicken in combination with another meta-magic feat.

To clarify the hymn sheet situation, for people arguing against me, do you allow a sorcerer to cast a quickened, "bog standard" magic missle?

 

[hong]

I'm re-reading this and my head is fizzing.

On first reading I assumed that sorcerers can't use Quicken. full stop. never.
I just thought the logic explaining this was screwed.

Now, I'm thinking it means to say a sorcerer can't Quicken in combination with another meta-magic feat.

To clarify the hymn sheet situation, for people arguing against me, do you allow a sorcerer to cast a quickened, "bog standard" magic missle?

Yes. A spontaneous, Quickened magic missile requires a 5th level spell slot, and a full-round action to cast.

You can take Quicken Spell if you're a sorc. You'll just get no benefit from it.

 

[Silveras]

I'm re-reading this and my head is fizzing.

On first reading I assumed that sorcerers can't use Quicken. full stop. never.
I just thought the logic explaining this was screwed.

Now, I'm thinking it means to say a sorcerer can't Quicken in combination with another meta-magic feat.

To clarify the hymn sheet situation, for people arguing against me, do you allow a sorcerer to cast a quickened, "bog standard" magic missle?

No, it is not saying "the Sorcerer is not allowed to". It is saying "Quicken doesn't work with spontaneous spells because applying any metamagic, including Quicken, makes the spell take longer to cast instead of shorter." It defeats its own purpose that way.

[Edit: There was a feat in the Forgotten Realms products, Arcane Preparation, that allowed a spontaneous caster to prepare spells in advance, like a Wizard. In THAT case, a quickened version of the spell could be prepared in advance, by a Sorcerer, because it would no longer be a spontaneously-cast spell. ]

 

[wighair]

A small copper coin falls someplace dark...

Gotcha! Thanks people.

 

[glass]

So? Why did you believe that the asterisked text was the reason for the prohibition?

The fact that it is joined to the prohibition with the word 'since'.

"Quicken doesn't work with spontaneous spells because applying any metamagic, including Quicken, makes the spell take longer to cast instead of shorter." It defeats its own purpose that way.

Except that it doesn't always make the casting time longer. Obviously, spontaneously quickening a magic missile would be silly. However, spontaneously quickening a summon monster or sleep spell makes sense.

So, it comes down to a question. Is the 'spontaneous caster can't quicken' a rule, in which case it is IMHO unwarranted, or is it merely an observation, in which case it is wrong.


glass.

 

[hong]

The fact that it is joined to the prohibition with the word 'since'.

I didn't have any problems parsing that sentence as a statement on precedence of effects.

Except that it doesn't always make the casting time longer. Obviously, spontaneously quickening a magic missile would be silly. However, spontaneously quickening a summon monster or sleep spell makes sense.

Why do you believe you can quicken a summon monster?

 

[glass]

Why do you believe you can quicken a summon monster?

I don't. I believe I am specifically prohibited from doing so.

I believe there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I so wish. (Well, my character, obviously )

Is it worth a 4 spell level to turn a full round spell into a full round action? Probably not, but why ban it?


glass.