why not take prestige class

[FreeTheSlaves]

You are absolutely right about the +1/level to existing level prestige classes. Most are no brainer decisions and thus, imo, invalid decisions.

But then again I prefer to modify core classes to fit character concepts over prestige classes. The beauty is that you get the class at 1st level and noone else can have it too.

 

[dububbles1834]

In the end, most spellcasters seem to be way better off to do a prestige class than to keep in the original class. I find that ind of wrong.

A monk and the new druid(3.5), I think, is a very good class that shows its cool to stay with, but if you take a prestige class, you miss out on some stuff and gain with others.

I think it just sucks to always go up 5-10 levels in a core class(spellcatser) and then go up 5-10 levels in 1 or 2 prestige classes. your best bet is at 5th level find a 10 level prestige class you qualify for and keep going up all the way to 10 levels. Then as a 15th level character find another prestige class thats 5 levels(like Arcane Devotee) or only go up 5 levels in a 10 level prestige class.

I just wish it was more balanced where core classes would get stuff to actually keep going up with them that would make it a good choice.

 

[Christian]

One other word: prerequisites. In many cases, the skill point/feat slot/spell slots your character uses on prerequisites can be pretty painful. Eg. the Loremaster core prestige class gives +1 caster level per level, so why wouldn't any sorcerer want to take it? Easy-because he doesn't want to spend get ten skill ranks in two Knowledge skills (one of which will need to be cross-class), and/or spend four feat slots on three metamagic/item creation feats and on skill focus (Knowledge), and/or (most importantly) seven precious spell slots on divination spells.

The Loremaster is an extreme example, but you'll see that situation for a lot of prestige classes. Sorcerers and Clerics don't get that many feats or skill points, and some of those will undoubtedly be 'wasted' to qualify for a PrC.

 

[Bauglir]

I wonder what happens if, under 3.5e a sorcerer takes those divination spells to get into Loremaster, then starts swapping them out again.

 

[Gideon]

I could be wrong but i can only think of three prestige classes that have full +1 spellcaster level progression. What books are you guys using?

Most of the stuff in tomb and blood is +1 level every other level.
Repeat: This is a question, not a criticism. (damn internet, makes tone of voice hard to convey)

 

[Li Shenron]

I just have a general question: Why wouldn't most spellcasters take a prestige class? A lot of prestige classes are +1 existing class for spells..if you also get special abilities while going up in spells per day, I don't see much of a drawback.

If you go up 10 levels in Wizard you get scribe scroll and two bonus feats and then take a prestige class. All your missing out on is 2 feats.

A cleric is just missing out on ten levels of undead turning, but a lot of prestige classes offer really good benefits.

The sorcorer pretty much only loses making his familiar have better abilities. I dont see why he wouldnt take one.

If I'm missing something, I'd love to be told. Please respond semi-nicely heh

You are not missing much, really. The Sorcerer class in definitely the best example: she has worst possible BAB, HD, saving throws and skill points, and all her power comes from spells. No PrCl is going to make her worse if it gives +1 level in spellcasting.

The Familiar progression is not a very critical thing: first of all, not all Wiz/Sor use a Familiar at all since it has its risks; then by 5th level (all the PrCl I've seen in WotC books set minimum level to qualify at least 6th) it has got the most important features - the bonuses granted to its master, easy communication with her and the ability to deliver touch spells. Unless you really want to exploit the Familiar to its maximum (Scrying on it can be very useful), everything else is just buff to Natural Armor, SR and increased intelligence. There are other means of protection available. Indeed, it's a pity to lose the extras, but the PrCl special abilities almost always compensate vastly for the loss.

Spellcasting for spellcasters is not the same as BAB for the warriors. Fighters get many combat feats, Barbarians special abilities, Paladins and Rangers abilities and some spells. Spellcasting for a Wizard or Sorcerer is EVERYTHING.

Clerics in theory should have possibly more to lose from taking a PrCl, since they have a greater BAB, HD and ST, and Turning/Rebuking and domains don't improve with the PrCl. Unfortunately, again many PrCl designed for the clerics give out the same BAB, HD, ST and possibly increase even the rest, effectively giving the Cleric extra powers without losing anything.

It makes sense that a PrCl is "prestigious", but at least for the Wiz/Sor there is effectively almost no reason not to aim for one. Wizards lose 2 bonus feat in a 10th-levels span, but usually 10 levels of a PrCl give much more than 2 feats and Familiar improvement.

PrCl have prerequisites, true. But if the PrCl is well designed, the prerequisites make sense and are something that are going to be used by the character: the Loremaster requires many divination spells because it is supposed to be a caster who focuses in gathering knowledge; if you don't, you are not playing a Loremaster at all, except for the name on your character sheet.
If a Loremaster PrCl had costly requisites which truly make little sense and are set only to balance the next boosts from the PrCl, then it is a very poorly designed PrCl.

The only possible thing which may even the problem out is your DM. If he ties PrCls to organizations, groups or similar, and require you good RPing, the reward has its cost, and it can nothing but improve your and everybody's game. Still, I would like myself that the core classes of Wiz and Sor could give more motivation for generalist single-class characters, but at the moment there is really little that do.

 

[LokiDR]

In most cases, PrC are better than base classes. You may not get everything you would have, but you usually get more. The exceptions are monk and druid. Take a look at weapon master. A fighter who takes it is missing a lot of feats, but they get abilities almost every level.

On the 3.5 sorcerer to loremaster and swapping spells: any time you no longer meet the prereqs for a class or feats, you lose all the benifits of that class or feat, except for HD, BAB, and saves.

 

[gariig]

Maybe the core classes need some more interesting abilities? Maybe something like boons ala Elements of Magic?

Gariig

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: why not take prestige class

In general, this is accurate, but there are a few places where I think it's downright wrong.

Clerics in theory should have possibly more to lose from taking a PrCl, since they have a greater BAB, HD and ST, and Turning/Rebuking and domains don't improve with the PrCl. Unfortunately, again many PrCl designed for the clerics give out the same BAB, HD, ST and possibly increase even the rest, effectively giving the Cleric extra powers without losing anything.

Which classes are these? The only p-classes I can think of with cleric BAB, HD, and saves (or better) are Church Inquisitor and Hospitaller. Every other class loses out on one or more of those. And Sacred Exorcist is the only cleric p-class I know of with full turning progression.

PrCl have prerequisites, true. But if the PrCl is well designed, the prerequisites make sense and are something that are going to be used by the character: the Loremaster requires many divination spells because it is supposed to be a caster who focuses in gathering knowledge; if you don't, you are not playing a Loremaster at all, except for the name on your character sheet.
If a Loremaster PrCl had costly requisites which truly make little sense and are set only to balance the next boosts from the PrCl, then it is a very poorly designed PrCl.

Just because prerequisites make sense doesn't mean they're not costs. Loremaster, for instance has pretty significant opportunity costs (and don't forget the skill focus: knowledge feats). Sure, they might be the kind of things that a Loremaster character OUGHT to take anyway but they do serve to dissuade non-loremaster characters from becoming Loremasters.

Similarly, the prerequisites of the Sacred Exorcist prestige class make sense. And an exorcist character ought to be taking such skills (although maybe not to the degree required--5 ranks of knowledge: religion and 5 ranks of Spot or Sense Motive might make just as much sense while having better power-gaming credentials). But that doesn't change the fact that a standard 10 int human sorceror taking the class has to spend 34 of the 60 skill points he will get over his career and one of the 3 or 4 5th level spells he will ever get on things he might otherwise not take--all to qualify for the class at level 17. An ordinary sorceror might want to max out concentration and spellcraft and put some skill points into bluff and diplomacy, etc. The wannabe sacred exorcist, OTOH has to choose between the social skills and concentration.

This is a very real cost as I see when the cleric in the group I play with (he's shooting for Sacred Exorcist) is in a situation that calls for casting defensively. Because he's been buying cross-class ranks of Knowledge: the planes, he has had to skimp on Concentration. Every point of damage from an AoO that hits when he's casting a spell (or that he provokes with movement before casting so as not to provoke one by casting) and every lost spell when he fails to cast defensively is the real cost of his sacred exorcist level (when he gets it).

For high stat characters, these are not as signficant but for ordinary stat-characters--even wizards, my fighter/wizard in the same campaign would have more spellcraft and a bunch more knowledges if he weren't shooting for a prestige class--they're very real and significant costs.

 

[Henry]

Maybe the core classes need some more interesting abilities? Maybe something like boons ala Elements of Magic?

Gariig

My supposition is that prestige classes need to not hand out so many goodies. It's why I'm getting turned off to PrC's more and more.

One good idea would be to limit prestige classes to 5 levels max, and to limit the number of prestige classes taken to 2 or even only 1, but that's just my opinion.

But as it stands, effective caster level is not the end-all and be all. It's the PrC's that offer +1 caster level at all levels, AND THEN they add other stuff on top. It needs to be a trade-off, frankly.