Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[KuKu]

The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer. With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence. 250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks. If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time. Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility". With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster. You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 1-1: Schism
Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image 39 PP expended
Rd 2: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 30 PP expended
Rd 3: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
Rd 3 action, Finger of death
Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 57 PP expended
Rd 4: Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed. He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6, Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.

I was just thinking about this post earlier and I thought to myself what good is this character doing for the party? At the end of the third round of combat he has likely done zero damage to the opponents since mind thrust from a schismed mind is unlikely to penetrate most creatures and energy ray cannot be used by it because it has no fingers to point with. At this level the entire combat could easily be over with either the party being nearly destroyed or the bad guys being eliminated. It may look impressive but this character has done nothing to help the group or to hurt the bad guys and everything he has done could easily be taken down by a single spell. Where is the part that actually makes this character any good at anything other than surviving certain kinds of attacks better?

 

[Marcus Smythe]

I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting. Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct. That is what I want to avoid.

I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?". They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns. I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.

You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them. I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.

Players who like psionics would, if they had 5c for every 'Psionics is Broken' cry, have alot more free time to play D+D.
Perhaps you have been tarred with the broad brush of such complaints, because the phenomenal majority of them stem from misreadings of the rules, inadequate encounters per day and/or non-combat challenges to stretch the Psions more limited resources, or perhaps because Psionics does in fact do some things that other caster classes have not done.

There may be a desensitizing effect going on here... players and GMs are used to Mages doing X, or Clerics doing Y, or Druids doing Z... but Psions are 'the new kid on the block', and when they prove that they can do P (though perhaps being unable to do X, or Y, or Z), where P is something that casters havent classically done well in 3.5, players and GMs respond negatively.

Past editions may also be responsible for it... earlier editions of psionics tended to suffer from their tendancy to be simultaneously very weak, and very subject to abuse. Given a weak-but-abuseable system, players tended to make those abusive choices.. and shoot right past the 'normal party balance' into minor godhood. This has made any instance where psionics does anything as well (much less better) than the Arcane crowd a rallying-cry for the 'nerf the new guy' foundation.

As practical advice? You say yourself that your a good, and effective, player. Either intentionally reign in your own effectiveness, hang up your psion for a while. If you can make a psion shine (and a Cerebremancer, at that... hmm... perhaps MAGIC is broken, not Psionics, Mr. 'mancer... perhaps you can really shock your fellow players by going full-court jungle-ball with Divine casting. If you actually dont know how to press-button-and-win with Divine casters, Ill point you over to the WoTC Character Optimization Boards, and say things like 'Nightstick' and 'Divine Metamagic' to put your feet on the proper path to power. Likely you already know those things. If you dont, ask the nice people there for the a powerful lvl 17 divine caster (limit them to no more books than your Cerebremancer uses, to make it slightly interesting). I assure you that the trained professional can take Core+Complete+Eberron (I assume the feats you use that I dont recognize are Eberron) and turn out something that makes the 'mancer you use in game look positively tame.

Barring that, delete everything in the entirety of WoTC Cannon that has the words 'Quicken' or 'Time' or 'Persistent' or 'Extra Action' or any of that stuff.

Barring that, dont play a full-court jungleball character (though I maintain its half-court college ball) in a 'suburban game of horse' game. I think the problem is that you came to play ball, and your fellow players didnt.

That said, I still think your fellow players/GMs need to see a full court jungle ball CoDzilla, if they think PSIONICS has balance issues.

 

[Dwarmaj]

I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting. Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct. That is what I want to avoid.

I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?". They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns. I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.

You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them. I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.

Does your group ban or limit arcane or divine casters? There's a reason there are very few psionic related builds on the Optimization boards, Psionics are deemed weak, or better yet, arcane/divine is deemed more powerful. Yes, there are a few "bent" powers, but does that make the whole system broken? How many spells/feats/items are overpowered (Wraith strike, Greenbond Summoning, Nightsticks)?

Earlier it was mentioned that Energy Adaption was broken because it gave resistance to several different energy types. It give resist 30 if you're, but you take any damage above that. The arcane/divine version only works for one type at a time true, but allows you to ignore 12 points of damage per level up to 120 points. I don't know about you but if I had a dragon about to breathe on me, I'd prefer to have the arcane/divine version.

I guess the reason the pro-psionics people can't help you fix psionics is because it's not broken. All we can do is give explanations for each point you bring up as to why it's "different".

One thing you could try is in your next campain, play a arcane or divine caster that is optimized to the same level as your psion. I'll bet you'll still be seen as overshadowing the others.

Now if you want to discuss which powers/feats are overpowered that a different discussion.
Schism (yes a bit too powerful for a straight manifester, basicly quicken power every round)
Metamorphosis (same problems as polymorph)
Astral Constructs (augmented over the ML using wild surge and to a lesser extent overchannel)
Damp Power (Complete Psi was pretty lame, but did introduce a few problems)
Syncronicity (quickened or linked)

After discussing overpowered psionic powers, you might want to take a look at overpowered spells/feats/items, because they do exist and there are many more of them.

 

[Valor]

Wildstarsearch could you please give us a break down of your party. By this I mean Class/prestige class, any really important feats or equipment. And General Attitudes and styles of play by your fellow PCs. With this information we can better understand why these other players feel outshined. While I tend to agree that spells or feats that give PCs extra actions are a BIG advantage and depending on how they are described they are rather unbalanced.

With that said, why do you use them? If you know they are “broken” then why continue to use them. While I understand that Schism and Vigor can look really powerful, most times they are not. Sure one gives a player more hit point but there are spells that do the same. As for Schism. I have only recently started playing a Telepath and well it doesn’t even look like a tempting power to take. I mean sure cutting your brain up into two pieces and having each kick ass sounds cool, but at 6 lower manifester levels? That gives your already lower end power/spell character a real disadvantage. But if it is that big of a deal that the other PCs that Schism and other power like Temporal Acceleration, make it seem that you have an unfair advantage. Well why not just not use those powers? Pick other powers, there are SO many to chose from.

While I will assume that your whole group is of the same caliber as you (you seem like a really smart person), then they should know that at levels like 17, that’s when casters really get to shine, it is their time…no questions about it. It almost sounds like they have a bigger problem with the fact that as a caster/manifester you are out doing them in damage, depending on their classes…this is…normal.

Marcus Smythe has some very good point about how think get taken the wrong way. Also he is right about that as far as over powered goes…well you aint seem nothing yet. While I though we had a solem vow not to get the WotC boards involved in this…but since that door has been opened. Here is are a pair of links to two thread that might help you.

Myth Thread 1

Myth Thread 2

 

[takasi]

I can do that for him:

http://home.comcast.net/~eberron/aow/Party.htm

He is playing as Jaden, the kalashtar psion.

I am the DM.

Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often, but we have two other players (who plan on DMing) who don't like psionics. However, if you look at the rest of the party you'll see we have a somewhat "optimized" group to compare him with.

Compare Jaden with Rasael (straight wizard).

The biggest complaints I've heard around the table are:

Lack of components: enemies cannot grapple, silence or use other means to stop the psion.

Seemingly unlimited high level abilities: 15+ disintegrates just sounds goofy.

Wonky abilities: Temporal Acceleration and schism are two that stick out in my mind

Just likes spells - only better!: Detect thoughts is better, mage armor / force screen, energy adaptation, energy ray...they all seem better than comparable spells.

Of course, now that I've confessed, I'm sure several people will quickly tell wildstarsreach that it's the DM's fault.

Really, it isn't that bad, I think the OP can be a worry wart sometimes. I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.

Edit: wildstarsreach, the two threads referenced above are the threads I was talking about a few months ago.

 

[Nail]

The vast majority of DMs dont allow psionics?

That's difficult to prove, one way or another. Polls have been tried on this site....but self-selection is a huge confounding factor.

However, we can look at how the game (3.0e, 3.5e, etc) is evolving as a clue. How many psionic supplements are out, compared to the rest? Which WotC splatbooks are put out first? Which are put out last? Etc.

@ Marcus Smythe: Psionics is not "the new kid on the block". It's been around 3.xe from nearly the beginning. That don't play, bud.

 

[Nail]

Of course, now that I've confessed, I'm sure several people will quickly tell wildstarsreach that it's the DM's fault.

Actually, from the tenor and content of your post, we can tell that it's not.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

The biggest complaints I've heard around the table are:

Lack of components: enemies cannot grapple, silence or use other means to stop the psion.

Seemingly unlimited high level abilities: 15+ disintegrates just sounds goofy.

Wonky abilities: Temporal Acceleration and schism are two that stick out in my mind

Just likes spells - only better!: Detect thoughts is better, mage armor / force screen, energy adaptation, energy ray...they all seem better than comparable spells.

1.) Lack of Components: Yes, this is a difference. I submit that any mage who, at 17th lvl, finds himself getting shut down by grapples, silence, etc. is a mage who will have a short lifespan. Still, advantage-Psion

2.) Unlimited High Level Abilities: Okay, I'm counting 16 Disintigrates off of the Sorcerer.. use the 'Metamagic Sorcerer' variant, and a good chunk of those would be empowered.. or.. -gasp- Twinned.

3.) Temporal Acceleration/Schism. Time Stop and memorizing quickend spells. Psion version is granted more flexible.

4.) Many of them are better than their mage counterparts. Then again... the psionic version of invisibility is a joke compared to its Mage counterpart, I'm still looking for the Psionic Color Spray, Evards B.T., and Ottos Irresistable You-Loose (aka Dance), and in many instances, even where there is a psionic counterpart, you have to pay a feat for it, or be the right sub-specialty.. which means your paying a feat for OTHER abilities that the mage just kinda scribbles into his tome-o-happy. (Consider the Following: Fireball. Polymorph Self. Flight. If your a psion, you cannot have all 3 without paying 2 feats)

Takasi: In closing, I wanted to say thank you for coming into the thread. I find your insight helpful, and am glad to provide my thoughts whenever useful (though we may in the end agree to disagree).

Final Thought: I see an Artificier 16 in that party. If the Caster Level 13x2 Cerebremancer is dominating in a group with an Artificer 16, its cause the Artificier aint tryin.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

However, we can look at how the game (3.0e, 3.5e, etc) is evolving as a clue. How many psionic supplements are out, compared to the rest? Which WotC splatbooks are put out first? Which are put out last? Etc.

@ Marcus Smythe: Psionics is not "the new kid on the block". It's been around 3.xe from nearly the beginning. That don't play, bud.

Perhaps I was insufficiently clear. It is certainly the kid that people have limited experience with in 3.5... in no small part because if issues I discussed with prior versions. As far as order of production? I dont think anyone would argue that its the least-popular-thing in core (barring epic). Some people dont like the flavor, some people dont think it fits in their games, some people have had bad past experiences, and some people would prefer not to learn a new system. Heck, if you dont like something, theres no reason to play one/play with one.

None of the above have 'out of balance with arcane casting' as precursors.

 

[frankthedm]

I don't know, I've had no unbalancing problems with any of the Psions I have played. Sure, he's been in the spotlight in more than one occassion, but so has the other PCs. And while you can "cast" more higher level powers than a Wizard or Sorc, you also burn through your power point reserve a lot quicker.

That IS the unbalanced part of the class. The Psionic characters can dump far too much PP in a combat. Once that happens the character will either have very little to do or will attempt to get the party to rest. It is at that point the DM either.

Allows the Psion to be overpowered and allows the group to rest.

Risks being seen as the "Bad Guy" when the foes press the attack against the resting PCs.

A limitation of a psionic character from spending more than X PP per minute might help the situation. A nice migraine headache [mental stat damage] would be about right and right in the flavor of the psycic abilities.