Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[wildstarsreach]

Here's something about the Sorcerer that most are leaving out. If a sorcerer uses a metamagic feat, it increases the time. From one action to full round and so on. Even heightened feat will make the spell a longer casting time. Expending your psionic focus is a paltry cost compared to this penalty.

 

[Zimbel16]

Here's something about the Sorcerer that most are leaving out. If a sorcerer uses a metamagic feat, it increases the time. From one action to full round and so on. Expending your psionic focus is a paltry cost compared to this penalty.

I disagree; when I played a Sorcerer, I found that the only significant issue with the full-round action was that I couldn't use metamagic with hasted actions (3.0). Since they removed this issue from Haste in 3.5, I doubt it is much of an issue any more.

Frankly, because of the long ranges of many of the sorcerer's more common spells, movement isn't going to likely be an issue, save in combats with lots of obstacles on the field. I'll note that at high levels, my character's typical response to such obstacles was to remove them (typically via repeated uses of disintegrate).

 

[Tsuul]

Expending your focus is a small penalty compared to increasing your casting time for the round you use it in, but you still have to give an action to get it back; thats a full round if you don't have the feat. Also, expending your focus has the other negative that you can't use multiple metapsionics without two more feats. Even with the feats, a sorcerer can stack on 3-8 (or more in epic) more metamagics. Then there are those rods that casters just love. But I wouldn't be surprised to see psionic versions of them pop up in a book at some point.

That's 3 feats just to keep up and under certain circumstances pass the sorcerer.
Usualy passing means that the psion can move once then cast, with each following round standing still to refocus and then cast. The sorcerer is down one movement.

 

[Zimbel16]

You are apparently comparing the 2nd level spell (which has a 2nd level power with which you have no problem) to a 4th level power. There are bound to be some issues with that.

A few ways to compare them:
1) spell slots required in AE (which does cross-conversions): 1 LV4 spell slot = 4 LV 2 spell slots. Of course, this presumes the time to use those spell slots.
2) Assume that one normally dosen't have these cast before combat. Then, the real cost is in actions, so to get up all 5 energy resistances, one might expend:
3 2nd level slots
2 6th level (quickened slots)

over 3 rounds. which means that you're using 2 fewer other standard actions in comparison with someone using Energy Adaptation.
3) Same assumption as #2:
1 9th level slot (time stop), with maximize or empower rod used
2) 5 2nd level slots.

So, from the above, Energy Adaptation does not look extremely strong in comparison to Resist Energy if both can be cast in advance of the combat. It does look extremely strong if it can't (particularly since Energy Adaptation can also be quickened on the cheap).

Personally, I'm more concerned with the amount of resistance than the plethora of types; I'd remove the text: "The energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points at 9th manifester level and to a maximum of 30 points at 13th level.", and add the augment:
"If you spend 5 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points. If you spend 10 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 30 points."

 

[wildstarsreach]

A few ways to compare them:
1) spell slots required in AE (which does cross-conversions): 1 LV4 spell slot = 4 LV 2 spell slots. Of course, this presumes the time to use those spell slots.
2) Assume that one normally dosen't have these cast before combat. Then, the real cost is in actions, so to get up all 5 energy resistances, one might expend:
3 2nd level slots
2 6th level (quickened slots)

over 3 rounds. which means that you're using 2 fewer other standard actions in comparison with someone using Energy Adaptation.
3) Same assumption as #2:
1 9th level slot (time stop), with maximize or empower rod used
2) 5 2nd level slots.

So, from the above, Energy Adaptation does not look extremely strong in comparison to Resist Energy if both can be cast in advance of the combat. It does look extremely strong if it can't (particularly since Energy Adaptation can also be quickened on the cheap).

Personally, I'm more concerned with the amount of resistance than the plethora of types; I'd remove the text: "The energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points at 9th manifester level and to a maximum of 30 points at 13th level.", and add the augment:
"If you spend 5 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points. If you spend 10 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 30 points."

Now here's a reply with a solution. Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion. to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action. I think that this may be a solution. Thanks

 

[Tikiman]

I am a power gamer. I'm not unabashed about that. My style will take things to an extreme so that the rules will be tested.

Then I'd like to submit the idea that whatever you play, no matter what rules it uses, it will look overpowered in comparison to the rest of your party (who are not powergaming). When you play other casters with this group and powergame them, do they appear overpowered? Have you ever tried playing a Cleric or Druid around them?

I don't attack you personally. You, on the other hand under the guise of sarcasm attack Thanee.

And I did not attack you personally either. I 'attacked' your DM, and later apologized. I asked you a series of direct questions, your response to which was to ignore the facts presented and instead take offense at them. If I want to attack you, I'll do it in a fashion that will surely get me banned. Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic. If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).

And, as I stated, my comment to Thanee was a sarcastic/exasperated remark. All logical evidence presented to her was ignored because "all evidence is faulty". Then I presented a poll of anecdotal evidence which was also ignored (for more fuzzy reasons). People who post opinions as fact and then ignore evidence are called trolls. I don't think that's what Thanee intended, but my remark did have a little bite to it because of this. As I stated, several of my house mates read what I posted and realized it was a sarcastic remark. If you still won't believe that then, well, I guess we've just got different definitions of 'attack'.

I admit that the system currently used is the best that TSR/Wotc has put out. That doesn't mean that there aren't problems. This is what I'm talking about.

And I will admit that the psionic system also has it's problems (as I've stated several times, Temporal Acceleration). However, arcane and divine magic, heck, the D&D system as a whole has problems. But some people like playing with these problems, and actually derive joy from them. Even if you do 'fix' the psionics system, it won't do you any good. You will still have to custom tailor the power level of your character to fit the power level of your group. All you've really accomplished is adding another layer of house-rules that have to be remembered. So why bother 'fixing' the system when it all comes down to a table specific agreement on power level anyways?

You state that my opinion is invalid since I have not played a straight psion. I have a degree in Logic. Convince me of your argument, not your brow beating.

OK, how about this piece of logic. Lets say you want to buy a new car, and you're trying to choose between a Zorp or a Dweedle. You're currently at the Zorp deeler and the janitor walks up to you. He has 0 experience with cars. However, he works for the Zorp dealership and tells you an angry story about how a his friends once ran over his foot with a Dweedle (they all thought it was fun). Therefore he can tell you for a fact that all Dweedles are bad cars and you should buy a Zorp. Would it be logical to listen to him? Of course not. He has a bias towards Zorps, a personal problem with Dweedles, and absolutely no relevant knowledge on the subject.

This is the situation you are in. You have 0 experience with 3.5 psionics except for a character that your group wants to be overpowered. You have stated yourself that you built him to 'test the limits' while your party uses more casual builds. You have a self-admitted anti-psi bias. You have every reason to not like psionics, and yet you have no credible evidence with them. Until you have playtested the system more, especially just XPH without overpowered non-core material, you don't have any credentials for passing judgment on the system. Does it look overpowered compared to arcane in some areas? Yes. So does divine. And there are things that a Psion is incapable of doing that the wizard excels at. As has been beaten into your brow by others, different does not equal overpowered.

You state that just that the opinions of other gamers must be right and I must be wrong. Give me logical reasons and I'm receptive.

The opinions of hundreds of other gamers, tested with both mathematical and anecdotal evidence, has more credibility then the opinion of one person who has little-to-no experience with the system in question, especially if that single person has a bias. What you are doing is the equivalent of walking into a hospital where all of the doctors recommend Tylenol and demanding that Advil is in fact a better medicine because you took Tylenol one time and it gave you an upset stomach. And to top it all off, much of the evidence you have presented has been countered, and sometimes proven flat wrong, by multitudes of other people on this thread. I can also inform you that the arguments you have presented have been handled in much the same fashion dozens of times on the Psionics forum.

In the last 6 months, during a typical session in which we have 2-4 encounters, my character typically uses maybe 4 spells. The Psion part is what is used for 95% of the combat. The last 2 sessions have been the endurance test.

Possibly the reason why I appear to be browbeating you is because you continually raise the same points again and again without acknowledging what I have previously said about them. You cannot use your character as an example of psionics in general being overpowered because in your case your character is simply more powerful then your fellow group members. Imagine if your group was a baseball team. Everyone else plays some in their free time, but they never really train for the game. On the other hand, you love baseball and try to be the best that you can be, right down to buying 'how to be a pro' books. In addition to that, when you go up to bat your team insists that you use an aluminum bat. Would you consider the comparison between your score and anyone else's to be a logical comparison? Wouldn't a true test require you to not only put away the aluminum bat, but also play with people who are trying to be as good at the game as you are? This is why I suggest that you play a regular psionic character on par with the power level of your group before you start trying to 'fix' the system.

I'm not saying you can't fix the system; what I am saying is that you are currently far to inexperienced with the system to make an educated objective assesment of it.

I'd like to know, do you consider the arcane/divine casting system in need of 'fixing' as well? Do you implement changes X, Y, and Z to bring them into balance with the rest of the game? If not, aren't you holding psionics up to a double standard? If you do believe/do these things, then please say so, as that radically changes the discussion. You would no longer be 'fixing' the psionics system, you would be 'fixing' casters in general, and lots of people agree with that sentiment (myself included).

And if you won't listen to me, will you listen to your own DM. Specifically when he says things like:

Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often

Really, it isn't that bad, I think the OP can be a worry wart sometimes. I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.

What's being said is more important than who is saying it.

I've already posted a few things that strike me as an advantage for the psion, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say the class is broken.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Now here's a reply with a solution. Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion. to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action. I think that this may be a solution. Thanks

Hmm... would be interesting. I suppose the people who like that style of defensive magics would still get the power, and the people who dont (myself, among others) would still not take the power...

 

[wildstarsreach]

Then I'd like to submit the idea that whatever you play, no matter what rules it uses, it will look overpowered in comparison to the rest of your party (who are not powergaming). When you play other casters with this group and powergame them, do they appear overpowered? Have you ever tried playing a Cleric or Druid around them?


And I did not attack you personally either. I 'attacked' your DM, and later apologized. I asked you a series of direct questions, your response to which was to ignore the facts presented and instead take offense at them. If I want to attack you, I'll do it in a fashion that will surely get me banned. Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic. If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).

And, as I stated, my comment to Thanee was a sarcastic/exasperated remark. All logical evidence presented to her was ignored because "all evidence is faulty". Then I presented a poll of anecdotal evidence which was also ignored (for more fuzzy reasons). People who post opinions as fact and then ignore evidence are called trolls. I don't think that's what Thanee intended, but my remark did have a little bite to it because of this. As I stated, several of my house mates read what I posted and realized it was a sarcastic remark. If you still won't believe that then, well, I guess we've just got different definitions of 'attack'.


And I will admit that the psionic system also has it's problems (as I've stated several times, Temporal Acceleration). However, arcane and divine magic, heck, the D&D system as a whole has problems. But some people like playing with these problems, and actually derive joy from them. Even if you do 'fix' the psionics system, it won't do you any good. You will still have to custom tailor the power level of your character to fit the power level of your group. All you've really accomplished is adding another layer of house-rules that have to be remembered. So why bother 'fixing' the system when it all comes down to a table specific agreement on power level anyways?

You don't want to fix the system, just brow beat since in your opinion of my experience has no validity. Even though I've suggested reasonable fixes. I find that.....

Possibly the reason why I appear to be browbeating you is because you continually raise the same points again and again without acknowledging what I have previously said about them. You cannot use your character as an example of psionics in general being overpowered because in your case your character is simply more powerful then your fellow group members. Imagine if your group was a baseball team. Everyone else plays some in their free time, but they never really train for the game. On the other hand, you love baseball and try to be the best that you can be, right down to buying 'how to be a pro' books. In addition to that, when you go up to bat your team insists that you use an aluminum bat. Would you consider the comparison between your score and anyone else's to be a logical comparison? Wouldn't a true test require you to not only put away the aluminum bat, but also play with people who are trying to be as good at the game as you are? This is why I suggest that you play a regular psionic character on par with the power level of your group before you start trying to 'fix' the system.

I'm not saying you can't fix the system; what I am saying is that you are currently far to inexperienced with the system to make an educated objective assesment of it.

Okay, so know historian can really have an opinion since they did not experience it themselves. That will destroy the entire academic community. I can look at the numbers, use the part of that I have observed. I can make conclusions based the evidence I have. Again, you appear to have ignored me. I make a straight psion every level to replace the character if he is killed. This character from paper looks more broken than Jaden. I guess that a nuclear bomb prediction that it would set off the atmosphere during the Manhattan Project never came to happen.

 

[Vurt]

Can we please stop with the personal sniping? Debate the arguement, not its poster.

If the problem is seen to be the psion class, and not psionics in general (which seems to be a reasonable enough position if neither the psychic warrior nor the wilder, who both make heavy use of the psionic power system, draw such contested debating), then would any of the following simple ideas help?

Option 1) Decouple save DC increases from damage increases. Pay for each separately. This also tones down the wilder somewhat.

Option 2) Psions receive 25% less power points per level. Scale the number to whatever is appropriate for your game. This is to encourage psions to be somewhat more conservative with their augments.

Option 3) Psions get even less powers known. They alternate getting either 2 or 1 new power per level from the very start.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Dwarmaj]

Now here's a reply with a solution. Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion. to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action. I think that this may be a solution. Thanks

You're kidding right.

You're saying that resist 30 to Fire/Cold/Electric/Sonic is equal to a 9th level power/spell? Did you know that there's an arcane/divine version that grants total immunity to a specified energy type? I believe Energy Immunity is a 6th level spell. There's also a 9th level spell that makes you immune to all energy types.

How is resist 30 to 4 types equal to total immunity to all energy types?