D&D General Why TSR-era D&D Will Always Be D&D

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
So...? (to Snarf)

Yes, you are right, but what is the value in this? Yes D&D will always be shared by its initial development. But when our generation dies off, only D&D historians will have any idea what TSR was.

In short, I think you give too much credit to keeping D&D linked to TSR.

I think you misapprehend the point I was making. It's TSR-era D&D, not TSR as an entity (which is ... you know, just a company that no longer exists).

Moreover, it's not even a question of credit; it's simply an acknowledgement that the choices that were made (many of which were just artifacts of the time, or chance, or the fact the you couldn't get a d20 without all the platonic solids) continue to influence/constrain D&D today.

Now, if you don't find value in that observation ... well, cool! No one will force you to.

Promise.
 

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Mercurius

Legend
One comment on path dependency. There are other factors that should be taken into account, especially when we consider such things as electric cars. In that instance, you have the oil industry, big oil lobbyists, politicians making deals, which all boils down to--at best--humans being humans, but really human greed. I remember a friend of mine in high school--eons ago--telling me about some engineer who made a car which ran on potatoes and, if memory serves, died under mysterious circumstances.

Now I'm not saying that there are conspiracies in RPGs - at least nothing on that scale. AFAIK, no one ever died for designing an RPG system that threatened "Big RPG" (aka, TSR/WotC). But there are socio-political elements - choices made based on ideology and, of course, economics (and really, ideology that serves economics).

And of course, in our personal lives, we make choices based on a variety of factors, some we don't even realized (that old psychology). To some degree this is a matter of "there's no accounting for taste" - why we like some things, but not others, or why some things we love, others hate, and how choosing the same thing, again and again, impacts our tastes. There's always that wonderful moment of discovery when you try something you previously "knew" you hated, but then decided you actually liked. But there are also previous choices that have a ripple effect. I made the choice to have children, and that has impacted everything since - probably more than any other choice I've ever made.

Around 2006ish, WotC made the choice to not only create a new edition, but one that diverged greatly from the then-current one. This was partially based on previous choices - flooding the market, so that by 2007 there was nothing new under the sun to publish or, at least, the law of diminishing returns prohibited them from publishing The Complete Book of Pages and Squires or The Blackstaff Guide to Finding a Decent Toilet in Waterdeep. But there were also other factors that influenced their decisions: the rise of video games and especially Warcraft et al, and the resulting stagnation of the D&D player base. WotC made choices in response to that; they had no choice about the context beyond their own domain.

I hate being so cynical, but in our current iteration of civilization, most of such choices comes down to economics - at least when considering the choices of businesses, especially larger ones. This is what is so fun about the RPG market beyond WotC: kickstarters and small publishers make choices all the time that aren't economically based, but are guided by love of the game. Jeffrey Talanian, the designer of the Hyperborea RPG and owner of North Wind Adventures, probably doesn't worry too much about the bottom line. He considers it, of course, but he didn't design Hyperborea to become rich. He loves his game, and publishes it, given whatever funds he has - and wants to share it with as many people as possible. This is why, for example, when I couldn't find a copy of Hyperborea 2E and inquired about it, he sent me a dinged up copy for free. That is a choice he made, that WotC would never make - and one that also has an economic impact, because it makes me want to support his company and tell others about it (so buy from North Wind, folks!).
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I think that if you removed too many elements of the old D&D, it won't "feel like D&D" anymore. So of course some elements will remain. I suppose one could say that the last 3 editions have been an exploration of what is D&D - what can be changed, what must remain.
 

3. The core classes are primarily the same. There are twelve classes in the 5e PHB, and nine of them are in the 1e PHB. Another (the Barbarian) was a popular optional class in the 70s (from Brian Asbury's article) and was first codified in 1e's UA.
There is definitely a strong thread of continuity there. Even if it only that it has retained a lot of things that do not have to stay constant. Such as clerics as a weird healing/evil-hunting/semi-martial hybrid (or clerics at all given that you can now have fighters or wizards with a clergy background), thieves/rogues with distinct identities from lightly armored fighters; bards who cast spells, etc. These things could have been re-shuffled, but haven't.
10. The "primary loop," while somewhat different (with the action economy) is still very familiar- initiative, attack, repeat.
Y'see, I don't think that was the primary loop in the TSR era. IMO, in OD&D-BECMI/RC, and in AD&D (2e this might have been muted, but I'm pretty sure it was still in the DMG, if a little more buried) the primary loop was -- move (rest every 6th turn), decide if searching for traps, explore, if meet enemies, make reaction roll, if hostility event, check morale, fight, moral, fight, morale, etc. Or it was the wilderness travel loop. Combat indeed followed the loop still used, but at least in theory that wasn't the primary one for the game.
 

Mercurius

Legend
the fact the you couldn't get a d20 without all the platonic solids
This may be the best and most important decision Gygax/TSR ever made: the polyhedral dice. In truth, it is one factor that instantly turns me off other games: whether or not they use the whole set. I know, d6 systems are elegant and cool with the indie folks--not to mention diceless. But I love my polyhedrons.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
This may be the best and most important decision Gygax/TSR ever made: the polyhedral dice. In truth, it is one factor that instantly turns me off other games: whether or not they use the whole set. I know, d6 systems are elegant and cool with the indie folks--not to mention diceless. But I love my polyhedrons.

It's, honestly, my best guess as to why I can't seem to enjoy a GURPS session. I love READING the books (own quite a lot of them) and the system is pretty good. Yet, whether I'm the one running, friends have tried to run and even conventions - I can't seem have a good session.

Taking everything else out, it might just be that always rolling only D6s is somehow not as satisfying!
 

I think you misapprehend the point I was making. It's TSR-era D&D, not TSR as an entity (which is ... you know, just a company that no longer exists).
Maybe NuTSR has me on edge about any claim to the entity TSR? :)
Moreover, it's not even a question of credit; it's simply an acknowledgement that the choices that were made (many of which were just artifacts of the time, or chance, or the fact the you couldn't get a d20 without all the platonic solids) continue to influence/constrain D&D today.
As I said, you're not wrong, and yes, the choices made have led us here. I guess to me that's so obvious as to not be necessary?
Now, if you don't find value in that observation ... well, cool! No one will force you to.

Promise.
I'm going to go lock my doors now. And I think I better order an anti-kidnapping kit too...
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
As I said, you're not wrong, and yes, the choices made have led us here. I guess to me that's so obvious as to not be necessary?

Sometimes! That's why I always think of path dependence as a concept that is both banal and profound.

At its simplest, it's just "history matters," which is like ... duh.

On the other hand, people tend to not recognize it for what it is. I'm not going to point out any of the current arguments in particular, but it is staggering how often people don't see that a proposal isn't enough to be better than what you have assuming we were starting ab initio, but instead is necessarily constrained by what is already there.

Or, put another way, people will keep playing D&D and using artifacts from the game that exist solely because of TSR-era D&D while having no real understanding of why they were originally there, and yet the game will continue to incorporate those aspects. Or, more simply, right now, there is the following dialogue going on somewhere:

New Player: What is my armor class?

DM: Uh, let's see. You have a 14 dexterity, studded leather, and no shield. So ... 14 AC.

New Player: No. I mean ... what is armor class?

DM: Oh. It's how hard you are to hit. Just write 14.
 

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