D&D General Why TSR-era D&D Will Always Be D&D

[CharlesWallace]

The Blackstaff Guide to Finding a Decent Toilet in Waterdeep.

I feel like the Blackstaff would be wasting their time. Ed's got it covered!

If there are sewers in Waterdeep, does that mean there are toilets too?

D&D Sage Advice · So, the quick answer is that clubs, eateries, and the homes of the noble and wealthy have garderobes (toilets), that flush

www.sageadvice.eu

Also, even though no one asked me- I'm old and I still think of D&D as being a TSR thing that WOTC is just taking care of for now. Maybe because I stepped away from the hobby late in 2E and didn't come back until 5E.

 

[Mort]

Also, even though no one asked me- I'm old and I still think of D&D as being a TSR thing that WOTC is just taking care of for now. Maybe because I stepped away from the hobby late in 2E and didn't come back until 5E.

Keep in mind TSR had D&D for 23 years (1974-1997) While WoTC has held D&D for 25 years and counting (1997-present).

It's amazing how fast time goes!

 

[jolt]

Paradoxically, we never really stopped using THAC0 while in many cases, we never used it in the first place. The only difference between THAC0 and what we do now is that two numbers in the formula switch positions.

In a modern d20 system, (3.x onward) if you want to hit your opponent, you do this:

Roll a randomizer: a d20 in this case
Add modifiers: BAB, attribute modifiers, magic weapon bonuses (usually a plus), buffing/debuffing spells/items, feats (and these are all pretty common, there could be others but they're rare)
Hit a target number: your opponents AC in this case

In the old THAC0 system, if you want to hit an opponent, you do this:

Roll a randomizer: a d20 in this case
Add modifiers: attribute modifiers, magic weapon bonuses, your opponents AC (and these are pretty common, there could be others but they're rare)
Hit a target number: THAC0 (it stands for 'To Hit Armor Class 0' in case anyone forgot)

The only difference in the modern system is that two numbers were swapped. Your old target number (THAC0) is now just a modifier (called BAB). The new target number (opponents AC) used to just be a modifier. And because they switched from descending to ascending AC, your THAC0 number is inverted. So if your THAC0 was 20, your new BAB is +0. If it was 19, then it's +1 etcetera etcetera. You could swap those two numbers back and the game would play exactly the same except that it would be called THAC20 instead of d20.

The problem back in the day was, and this happened even at RPGA events and official cons, was that people would insist on using the opponents AC as the target number. It still works that way, but it isn't how the numbers were presented. No one ever stopped using THAC0, it's just not called that anymore (it's BAB now). The number wouldn't even look different except that they went up with AC instead of down. That's the one minor boost fighter types got in 3.x: in the old editions, everyone started with a THAC0 of 20 (or BAB +0). Now, fighters start with a BAB of +1 (THAC0 19).

It's funny now reading articles and comics about the "death" of THAC0.

 

[CharlesWallace]

Keep in mind TSR had D&D for 23 years (1974-1997) While WoTC has held D&D for 25 years and counting (1997-present).

It's amazing how fast time goes!

Ah, but have you considered this? What if I lack the concept of object permanence? When I looked away, RPGs stopped existing! Now that I'm watching again, they exist again.

So maybe in another 20 years, then I'll consider WOTC to be the owners of D&D

 

[Mort]

Ah, but have you considered this? What if I lack the concept of object permanence? When I looked away, RPGs stopped existing! Now that I'm watching again, they exist again.

So maybe in another 20 years, then I'll consider WOTC to be the owners of D&D

Hmm,

In the "old days" you could actually step away from D&D, so each week only counted for 4-6 hours or so of TSR ownership - you know, when it's not in your face and doesn't count!

Now? Message boards, emails, and even when you're reading a news article ads for D&D beyond and the like! Every moment counts. If WoTC hasn't caught up yet, it will soon

Just a thought.

 

[Yora]

So is 5th edition hampered from being a better game because it keeps holding on to old mechanic because the developers want to still call it Dungeons & Dragons?

Yes. Yes, it is. Continuing the tradition from half a century ago is in conflict with the kind of game that the current target audience wants to play, resulting in a flawed product.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So is 5th edition hampered from being a better game because it keeps holding on to old mechanic because the developers want to still call it Dungeons & Dragons?

Yes. Yes, it is. Continuing the tradition from half a century ago is in conflict with the kind of game that the current target audience wants to play, resulting in a flawed product.

I very much doubt this is true. Going back to the older playstyle and feel is what brought 5e back up in popularity. "Feeling" like D&D is probably the biggest factor here, and in order to feel like D&D, it has to share many of those rules as older editions.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that if they discarded those old rules and completely redid everything in the biggest diversion from the original rules as possible, it wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is. Why would I bet this? Because we saw it happen with 4e. There is precedence.

 

[payn]

So is 5th edition hampered from being a better game because it keeps holding on to old mechanic because the developers want to still call it Dungeons & Dragons?

Yes. Yes, it is. Continuing the tradition from half a century ago is in conflict with the kind of game that the current target audience wants to play, resulting in a flawed product.

I think imperfect product is the real answer. Some folks around here said it best in that 5E is an inoffensive game that they dont hate, but don't love either. It cleaves right down the center of old school and nu skool and lands right in okaysville.

 

[Hex08]

So...? (to Snarf)

Yes, you are right, but what is the value in this? Yes D&D will always be shaped by its initial development. But when our generation dies off, only D&D historians will have any idea what TSR was.

There was a time where that might have been true but with the availability of older versions of D&D on places like DriveThruRPG and eBay combined with the OSR movement that history isn't likely to die anytime soon. Plus, there will always be a portion of the gaming community that is interested in the history of the hobby without being historians. Sure, the number of people aware of TSR may shrink but I don't think TSR will be as easily forgotten as you think.

However, even if TSR were to be forgotten by all but the historians that doesn't mean that Snarf's point is wrong. The original TSR D&D game will continue to influence it's successors. Some parts will change and disappear but some very basic elements will be unlikely to go away.

 

[Minigiant]

But isn't most of the TSR Era D&D just name only?

Most of the mechanics, design goals, and fluff has shifted always from those of the TSR days. Score, races, classes, levels, AC , saving throws, etc in 5e all work differently and run on completely different design philosophy from the pre-2000 days.