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Why Worship Gods?

Voadam

Legend
fusangite said:
In polytheistic cultures, worshipping the gods is a matter of civic duty. Gods, demons and angels cause droughts, epidemics, earthquakes, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, victory in battle, etc. Religion is not just a matter of personal devotion, it is a metter of public responsibility.

I haven't ever played a D&D character who believed droughts, epidemics, earthquakes, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, victory in battle, etc. were always caused by gods, angels, or demons. These supernatural beings could physically come down and interact with their supernatural powers to cause these things directly on an individual basis, but so can wizards or druids and for the most part I assume these beings don't really care and don't get involved in most mortal things. Even if they are involved in the physical process manifest in the mortal world, it is not in response to human propitiation or lack thereof.

Even if Earthquakes are caused by Loki's writhing when the venom drips onto him as he is chained under a mountain, it has no relationship to worship or the gods' anger at humans. It just is something that happens in the world and you deal with it.

Similarly Ra rides across the sky everyday and doesn't do it because mortals sacrifice to him.
 

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Ibram

First Post
IMC there are several reasons why one would worship a god

1) because thats what everyone else does. If your parents worship a god, and all your neighbors worship a god then you probably worship that god. If you think about it thats why most people worship a god, and its not realy worship anyway.

2) because the god promotes ideals you believe in. a much smaller portion of the population follows gods for this reason. If you believe, realy deeply believe, in justice then you'll probably follow the teachings of the Justice God.

3) Because the god is there and he says to. this is mostly the case with exceptionaly powerful beings like ancient dragons. Lets face it; if a great wyrm red dragon told you to spend 3 hours a morning once a week in a building you'd do it.

4) they experience the emotion of Faith. the rarest form; those who do dont usualy "worship" a "god" but rather have a deeply held sense of the divine.

what benefits do you get?

well for 1, you fit in with your community. and are less likely to be burned at the stake.

when you fall under the second group you realy are not looking for a benefit, but you can get some comfort from the knowledge that there is a powerful entity backing you up.

Three offers the most benefits, the dragon wont eat you... and bandits are not that likely to raid your farm.

the fourth group is similar to the third in that they dont realy get a tangible benefit for their faith. that faith is the reward in and of itself.

There is no rules reason for characters to worship, or not worship gods IMC. Its up to the players to determine if they want their character to be religious or not.
 

fusangite

First Post
Voadam said:
I haven't ever played a D&D character who believed droughts, epidemics, earthquakes, floods, good harvests, bad harvests, victory in battle, etc. were always caused by gods, angels, or demons.
Where did you get "always" from my post? The point is not that they are the sole cause; they are a cause.
but so can wizards or druids
Indeed. And in most worlds I run, people try to exert influence on these groups as well, often through the same institutions they use to exert influence on the gods.
Even if Earthquakes are caused by Loki's writhing when the venom drips onto him as he is chained under a mountain, it has no relationship to worship or the gods' anger at humans.
This is the same kind of sophistry you use in your first response. The fact that all instances of gods affecting the world are not contingent on the gods' will does mean that no instances of gods affecting the world are contingent on their good will.
Similarly Ra rides across the sky everyday and doesn't do it because mortals sacrifice to him.
Whereas, in Aztec mythology, if you don't sacrifice to the Earth Monster, it will destroy the world.
 

Voadam

Legend
fusangite said:
Where did you get "always" from my post? The point is not that they are the sole cause; they are a cause.

From you saying "Gods, demons and angels cause droughts, . . . etc." instead of "Gods, demons and angels can cause." I took your meaning to be that polytheists believe everything has direct interaction cause from the gods etc., not simply that gods can interact with the material world if they happen to be there and exert themselves to do so.

Indeed. And in most worlds I run, people try to exert influence on these groups as well, often through the same institutions they use to exert influence on the gods.

Let me expand the groups to weather, hard work, good luck, bad luck, sabotage, monsters, fate, magic, and superior military.

This is the same kind of sophistry you use in your first response. The fact that all instances of gods affecting the world are not contingent on the gods' will does mean that no instances of gods affecting the world are contingent on their good will.

You are reading too much into my statements if you are taking me to mean god interactions can't ever be based on good will from worship. I'm saying the presence of gods does not require worship or a belief that propitiating them or failing to do so will necessarily be relevant to a mortal's life. It can be relevant if there is direct interaction such as with your Earth Monster example below, or if the gods react to worship or the lack thereof.

Whereas, in Aztec mythology, if you don't sacrifice to the Earth Monster, it will destroy the world.

In D&D a monster that will destroy the world unless sacrifices are made to it would be a campaign specific detail or plot element. It is not the default. Under the default, piety vs. non-piety is not a big deal for PCs or NPCs unless the DM makes it so.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I solve this in an offhanded sort of way. I generally run in Greyhawk (or at least a Greyhawkish world). There are lots of gods. In history, various gods have walked the face of the planet, mortals have become gods, and clerics get their powers from gods.

I allow clerics to worship no god at all. However, I basically make this option so rare that most people don't know about it. If asked, the average person on the street would tell you to cast clerical magic you need to worship a god. Even if someone showed up claiming to have clerical magic without worshipping a specific god, most people would tell the person "You MUST be worshipping a god, you just likely don't know which one. But he(or she) has chosen YOU."

Most people worship gods because that's how people expect to gain powers. It is very rare the person who believes in an ideal so much without a personification of that ideal that they get powers from it.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
Voadam said:
Deities are not necessary for an afterlife. Nirvana, reinacarnation, etc. can work fine without a deity or deities to run them. Even the default D&D setup of souls going to aligned outer planes does not require gods. Godless clerics don't need to believe there is no afterlife.

But how are these commonfolk learning about an afterlife that isn't provided by gods? When someone returns to life they don't remember the time inbetween. Are they just going to believe any yahoo who says he's been to Heaven/Nirvana/whatever and returned? He's probably some rich adventurer that has to be a little crazy to be going places like that without permission, and to be fighting all those monsters and doing other crazy stuff. To the eyes of a commoner. But all those priests in that temple over there, they say they know what/where the afterlife is, and there are temples like that all over. Surely they're more likely to be right than that one crazy adventurer who thinks he's been to another world? If he has been there, he's probably some villain trying to subvert the faith or taint the promised land. Lynch him! ........that's what a commoner would more likely think.

After all, you need to be high level to acquire spells that will take you to outer planes. And sorcerers and cultists can perform all kinds of mind tricks, so transporting someone there isn't necessarily going to convince. You could just be messing with their mind, and making them disappear to the eyes of observers, but never actually going anywhere. Etc.

Hrum. Maybe now I'm just reaching, but whatever. Still, it is unlikely that folks would find out about and believe some crazy philosopher as opposed to the church that has been around, like, forever.
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
If you want an idea for TANGIBLE deity benefits, my advice, check out the Divine and the Defeated. The Scarred Lands panethon has some very SPECIFIC ways to encourage non-cleric oriented PCs by having them "pray" for up to 3 round to gain a specific bonus to the following: a skill bonus, an attack bonus, a damage bonus, DC spell bonus, or turning checks. Of course you can ONLY choose one AND only as it relates to a specific deity's domain/portofolio.

*just wonders why Trick didn't mention it...*
 

Ibram

First Post
Arkhandus said:
Hrum. Maybe now I'm just reaching, but whatever. Still, it is unlikely that folks would find out about and believe some crazy philosopher as opposed to the church that has been around, like, forever.


it happens all the time in real life, no reason why those who live in a fantasy world would be any different. Infact it might be easier for those in a fantasy world to swich faiths.

If a cleric of god A slaughters a cleric of god B, then says to the general population "my god is stronger, worship him" the people will do it. Why? Because in a generic D&D world the clerics control the distribution of divine power.

IE dont worship god A and his clerics won't heal you when the bandit shoots you with an arrow, or save your kid when he comes down with mud butt
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Voadam said:
In other words even taking all moses' reported observations as true accounts of his observations it is not logically impossible that there is a magician doing these things.

How often, in this world, are we given a situation where logical impossibility is the standard of evidence upon which we operate? Our courts, at best, work upon "reasonable doubt". OUr individual beliefs and day-to-day life work upon much lesser standards than that, even.

We don't require that all other options be logically impossible. We merely require that the chosen option be reasonable.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
I don't know about that. In D&D, a lot of people see things like people disintegrating, or being consumed in holy (or unholy) fire, or wounds being healed with a touch and a prayer. So, the question is whether the mass of people could rationally trace the phenomena of clerical spells and divine visitations back to their divine source. It's possible in principle; the question is whether it is possible for most people.

To a great extent, the answer to this will depend upon the D&D campaign in question since the frequency, nature, and power of divine magic varies from campaign to campaign. In fact, even the source of divine magic varies from campaign to campaign, so, for instance, in a campaign where belief in the gods grants powers because it comes from commitment to the principles the gods represent (rather than inhering in the gods' persons), anyone who rationally traced the power back to its source should find that it is not the gods. However, if one assumes that the power really does inhere in the gods (whether or not similar power inheres in abstract principles), it's possible to look at the question in a world like Greyhawk.

The first principle in extending the analysis is that reliable testimony of supernatural events has to be rationally possilbe. Of course, everyones' knowledge of the natural world relies upon testimony and, in a world like Greyhawk, the notion that it would require an impossible amount or kind of evidence to believe in a supernatural event but not in an unusual natural event is ludicrous. After all, which is more common in Greyhawk, a natural event like an unmarmed and unarmored man beating a Pyrohydra to death in twelve seconds or a supernatural event like someone miraculously healing after drinking a potion? Any standard of evidence that would allow a Greyhawker to believe in 20th level monks but not in cure light wounds is manifestly wrong.

Once it is acknowledged that characters in a D&D world can accept reliable testimony of supernatural events, the question is how much knowledge they have and what form it comes in.

Observations or reliable reports of spells would probably be the most common. Even spells like cure light wounds are fairly common and are likely sufficiently remarkable to be noticed and sufficiently unexplainable as to demand a non-natural explanation. Given DMG and Greyhawk module demographics, it's probably that reliable testimony of low level magic is well-nigh universally available and firsthand knowledge is fairly common. Reliable testimony of specific higher level magic is probably rarer but still relatively common--especially with the number of wars in Greyhawk that would group large numbers of people together and give them a chance to see some higher level magic. (Not that they are likely to see it as a "chance"--they're probably more interested in not seeing it unless it's on their side).

There are, however, two related obstacles to logically inferring the existance of spiritual beings from spells. The first is the weaker one and will vary in strength depending upon how DMs interpret divine verbal components. If they are interpreted as something like "May Heironeous smite you with fire from the heavens!" (Flame Strike) then they connect to a named entity other than the cleric. If, however, they are, like arcane verbal components, then a common observer has no way of determining that the power comes from beyond the cleric, druid, or paladin, rather than from within him as it would with a sorcerer, wizard, or bard. It's quite possible that educated individuals with Knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft might recognize the divine spells as depending upon an outside influence (the rituals lack the necessary power to call fire or healing into being on their own), but again, it's not certain. In general, however, I think a that there's ample reason to think of divine verbal components as taking the form of prayers rather than arcane syllables and further reason to think that, even if they don't, educated individuals would be able to tell the difference between arcane and divine magic.

So, the weaker form of the objection might run like this: spells are connected to individual characters rather directly. In the example of Moses and the burning bush, there is no spellcaster, prophet, or intermediary and there is a voice and a burning bush to indicate the presence of an unobservable entity. For spell-evidence, however, the story of Moses and the Pharaoh's magicians may be a more appropriate analogue. Moses casts sticks to snakes. So do they. Moses casts transmute water to blood, so do they. Moses casts frog plague, and they polymorph a pebble into a frog. The logical conclusion for the Pharaoh when Moses casts his widened, extended insect plague and they can't follow suit is not "this must be the work of a god" but "Moses must be higher level than my magicians." (Curiously, his reaction in the biblical story is not very different from that). Spell evidence in a D&D world is strong evidence of the power of the individual but may well not be sufficient to prove the existence of the beings called upon.

In order to move from spell evidence to the existence of a specific spirit that would cause those spells, I think some further interaction is necessary. In order to conclude that a spirit with intellect and will was behind the spells, I think something more than a recognizable verbal component is needed. The phenomenon of ex-clerics and ex-paladins is probably not as widely known, but would provide evidence that something other than the cleric or paladin has some control over granting their powers. Spells like Commune and Divination which provide answers to questions would provde a some evidence for an entity behind the spell-evidence since they provide for (very limited) two-way communication. (Cross referencing with the similar contact other plane might also provide knowledgable people stronger evidence that those spells provide contact with a real entity). Large scale public events like an angelic messenger descending to gift the founders of a city with an olive tree (as Athena did in the myth of the founding of Athens) or a voice speaking in concert with an individual who had demonstrated spell-evidence (like the voice at Mt. Horeb) would also provide some evidence from which to infer. That, however, is rare, even in Greyhawk. (Though not unheard of; for instance, it's quite possible that credible testimony of St. Cuthbert's actions in the Temple of Elemental Evil would be available to loremasters of the Flanesse). Furthermore, the presence of non-deific extraplanar entities who nevertheless influence the world of Greyhawk (night hags being one example) would also make it more credible that there might be more powerful entities that are similarly unseen. Ironically, the rather irrefutable presence of Iuz on Greyhawk is probably some of the strongest evidence for other deities. (After all, he operates like them in nearly all manners except location and would thus provide evidence that, for at least one deity, there is definitely a person behind the spell evidence).

So, I think that most people in a Greyhawk like world would have to accept the existence of gods on authority--that of experts and rulers. The common folk would have spell evidence that was consistent with the beliefs they accept on authority but would not be sufficient to justify them, given the other information they probably would not have. The experts would have sufficient evidence for a reasonable belief in the gods. But that's how most everything works in the real world anyway. Most people IRL have to accept their information that way (and are happy to do so as well). We have ample evidence that fits with our worldview and renders it believable but if we want to justify everything from first principles, we'll find that a rather daunting task.

Umbran said:
The biggest flaw is that most folk (even in D&D worlds) are not presented with events quite as remarkable and unexplainable as unconsumed yet burning bushes that speak and transform sticks to snakes. His argument holds pretty well for Moses - his is not merely a case of confirmation bias, but holds poorly for anyone but Moses. His point simply doesn't scale to the world at large.
 

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