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Why Worship Gods?

SilverFoxKnows

First Post
I run homebrew more often than the Realms

and there is little doubt that the gods are real. In the earliest memories of the mortal races the gods waged war on mortal soil and nearly destroyed the world. Now, the Great Lords do not step foot on the world of men (although lesser gods and demi-gods can). In the cities churches play a huge role in day to day life. In a large kingdom the clerics perform marriages, heal the sick, perform burial ceremonies, teach, defend the city walls and help the mayor/ governor/ duke/ what-have-you in keeping the streets safe. Holy symbols are a common enough sight. In the countryside the farmers and goat herders still look to the clergy for help. The Nightwatchers (Druids and Rangers) keep Orcs and Goblins away from the roads and farms. Druids take an active role in keeping the rural settlements in balance. They help with advice and spells, teaching the country folk to live in harmony with the land. There are no clerics without a god. And any Ur-priests had best keep a very low profile. Not everbody worships regularly or even prays to one god exclusively but the belief is there. Tell an evil cleric his god isn't real and see what happens.
 

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Arnwyn

First Post
Raven Crowking said:
Why does anyone in your world worship gods? 3.X establishes pretty well that clerics (etc.) gain their divine spells and powers whether or not they worship anyone. What is the purpose behind gods in your world? Does anyone get any direct benefits from worshiping them? Indirect benefits?
I play FR (albeit modified), so your premise doesn't even apply to me.
 

ptolemy18

First Post
Driddle said:
I'm curious as to how many DMs expect the clerics in their campaigns to act in a worshipful manner every so often. Because unless you pay some minimal amount of lip service to tne deity of choice, he's just another game mechanism instead of a believable roleplaying element.

I require clerics to behave in a fairly worshipful manner. It's not much different from alignment -- "Well, a cleric of Such-and-Such God would probably think it's right to behave like this." Although none of the PCs in my current group are playing clerics (there is one NPC cleric following them around), so it's a moot point. If they can't get into the religious aspects, less healing for them! ;)

(Seriously, tho', I don't have any indication that they don't want to play clerics because of religious conflicts... they just all prefer fighter- or rogue-type characters. They don't have ANY spellcasters. One of them *does* worship idols, though, as per the TESTAMENT rules I quoted above.)

Jason
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
ptolemy18 said:
Ahhh... a wonderful, borderline-religious discussion!!! I love it! :)

In my campaign, of course, the answer is that clerics *don't* gain their powers unless they worship someone (and in fact, in the 3.5 PLAYER'S HANDBOOK, that's pretty much the way it is too... it's only in supplements like COMPLETE DIVINE and BOOK OF EXALTED DEEDS that you really start seeing the "Priests who worship Abstract Principles" and so on).

Er?

Let's look at the cleric class in the 3.5 PLAYER'S HANDBOOK, shall we?

Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected. With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.


Or the Spiritual Weapon spell, in the 3.5 PLAYER'S HANDBOOK:
The weapon that you get is often a force replica of your deity’s own personal weapon. A cleric without a deity gets a weapon based on his alignment. A neutral cleric without a deity can create a spiritual weapon of any alignment, provided he is acting at least generally in accord with that alignment at the time. The weapons associated with each alignment are as follows.

Chaos: Battleaxe
Evil: Light flail
Good: Warhammer
Law: Longsword


Looks to me like the 3.5 PLAYER'S HANDBOOK certainly allows clerics who don't worship a deity to gain powers...

-Hyp.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Driddle said:
Faith, in the sense used for discussing matters theological, is what a person bases his belief on sans evidence. If you've got evidence of gawd's existence, then there's no need for faith.

That rather depends on who is discussing theological matters with. It is true that some philosophers have treated the idea of faith as belief sans evidence and that some theologians have attempted to come up with a way to accept that definition without being obviously apostate. However, at least for (theologically) conservative and historical Christian theology, you've got it exactly wrong and the faith/evidence distinction is a false dichotomy. C.S. Lewis characterized faith (I'm paraphrasing) as the steadfastness to continue believing and acting on what your mind tells you is true despite feelings to the contrary. The famous passage on faith in Hebrews also makes absolutely no sense if you read it with the "belief sans evidence" definition in mind. "By faith, Moses..." Moses had plenty of evidence so the author who ascribed Moses' actions to faith must have had something other than "belief sans evidence" in mind. From another theological quarter, you'd never get the idea that faith is belief without evidence by reading the late John Paul II's Fide et Ratio.

Your definition may very well be the definition that is used when discussing theological matters with some people in some quarters, but it's not the accepted theological definition by any stretch of the imagination and accepting it actually inhibits understanding of a lot of both ancient and modern theology if it doesn't render understanding impossible. You'd get just as far understanding progressive thought based on Ann Coulter's definition of justice.

Complicating matters of faith vs. evidence is a funky mental quirk humans have that psychologists call "confirmation bias," which leads us to establish cause-and-effect relationships between all sorts of events even if such links are not justified. For example, I wear red socks and my team wins, I'm convinced that the socks and success are connected in some way. It works the other way, too, though: once a bias has been established ("I pray and good things happen"), the negative outcomes are ignored because they don't fit the bias ("Hnh. I prayed and nothing happened? Must not have prayed hard enough...")

What that means is that the layman philosopher will stubbornly maintain that he has seen "evidence" of gawd's existence via prayers and miracles, even though there's no way to track it back to the source.

This argument doesn't really hold water. There are more types of reasoning than deductive and inductive. Though it doesn't get the Sherlock Holmes literary treatement, abductive reasoning to unobservable phenomenon is an important part of certain branches of physics and the same kind of reasoning can be applied to the spiritual world. For instance, if one takes the biblical story at face value (or some other stories, for that matter; I refer to the biblical stories because they are the ones I'm most familiar with), the Moses heard a voice speak from within a bush that appeared to be on fire but was not consumed. The voice instructed him to take off his shoes--an instruction consistent with his cultural notion of holy ground and his received expectations of the divine. It then gave him directions that appeared to refer to events in his past and in the world around him. When he protested, it appeared to respond to his protests. It directed him to cast his stick on the ground and the stick became a snake. It directed him to pick the snake up and the snake became a stick again. It directed him to put his hand in his tunic and it appeared to become leprous. It directed him to do so again and his hand resumed its normal appearance. Then, as though it expected the demonstration of power to change Moses' mind, it repeated its directions.

Assuming that all of that happened as described, it would constitute evidence for the existence of a being that made the bush burn, spoke, appeared to understand what Moses said, and then caused the physical changes in his hand and staff. Dismissing it as confirmation bias would be ridiculous. (And that some people would dismiss it as confirmation bias or hallucination is evidence enough that, all of the D&D magic, no matter how common would not guarantee belief either in the divine in general or any particular entity). The layman philosopher may be correctly or incorrectly reasoning that an unobserved (or even unobservable) entity is behind any of his particular experiences, but the principle of reasoning to unobserved causes for phenomena that need an explanation is sound. (And the materialist who always thinks that "natural" causes can (or will be able to) explain any given phenomenon can just as plausibly be charged with confirmation bias as one who believes that spirits are responsible for everything).

To bring the discussion back to D&D, I don't think that the core rules really offer any definitive explanation for why people might worship a deity. However, one rather ancient explanation that could be made to work would be because deities deserve worship in much the same way as a star athlete or a good man deserve admiration. (The phrase "hero worship" is not wholly metaphorical). Deities do things that people see as admirable and peoples' response is praise and admiration. (And, if you want to know why people worship evil gods... well, anyone who's lived through junior high knows that people praise and admire a lot of people who are rather repugnant). Obviously, that explanation would demand a far more active and direct connection with the gods than is customary in D&D (where spirituality often resembles Christianity with all the Christian elements removed (no wonder it's often vacuous)). However, it might well resemble the world portrayed in the Illiad or Exodus where the gods or God showed up and interacted directly with mortals rather frequently.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
Actually, a strong reason for it is that faith in a deity or spirits means that one can believe they will live on even after death..... People are afraid of death and disappearing utterly forever, and a godless cleric who gets their power from philosophy or something generally can't give you any reason to hope or believe that you'll still exist after death. People want to believe they'll go on. Faith in a deity gives hope for that, whereas godless clerics can't give people anything to hope for beyond the life they're currently living. If nothing else, being told by one cleric that you'll be reincarnated after death, or pass on to an otherworld, or be joined with the greater omniscient essence of the divine, or something, is infinitely better to most folks than hearing from some philosopher that "oh, dead is dead, you don't go anywhere."
 

Why worship gods when the rulebook says that clerics can get spells without them?

Because characters don't read the rulebook? Because religions are big powerful organizations with a lot of military, political and social power in most settings, and it is a good thing to be affiliated with them, and going around saying you are a cleric or paladin but can't give a straight answer when asked what god you serve can make the common folk pretty suspicious.

Maybe it's because being a servant of an immortal and nigh-omnipotent being can have beneifts on rare occasion. Maybe the cosmology of the setting makes worshipping a deity a really good idea if you want to have a good afterlife.

Maybe because a lot of settings (FR notably, but a lot of homebrew stuff too) ignore that little line in the PHB and make it a setting rule that divine magic only comes from divine powers.

Maybe because the "Generic Cleric" was painfully cliche in 2e, when TSR tried to remove any elements of specific religions from the D&D core to appease the anti-D&D crowd, and a lot of players from back then still don't like the idea of a "Cleric of Nobody in Particular".

The PHB was meant to work in as many settings and games as possible, and was a lot more about options than restrictions. However, not every campaign setting follows every letter of the PHB, and even if it is technically possible, being a freelance cleric isn't always a good idea in a game setting. Just like some settings don't allow some core classes, or some spells, or some races, allowing "Generic Clerics" is something every DM has to decide for himself.
 

Driddle

First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:

Using examples from the Bible to uphold an argument on faith -- interesting. You've clearly revealed that any further discussion with you on this matter will be moot.

You're wrong. But that's OK.
 

Zappo

Explorer
ARandomGod said:
Heheh

Reminds me of Terry Pratchet:
(Not a quote, but something similiar based on memory)
Wizards don't believe in gods. Any more than they go aroune believing in a table. They're there, they're useful... you certainly don't disrespect them, but there's no point going around believeing in them.
Heh. Neither do witches. Gods are already arrogant and self-centered enough as it is, there's no need to encourage them. :D
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Driddle said:
Using examples from the Bible to uphold an argument on faith -- interesting. You've clearly revealed that any further discussion with you on this matter will be moot.

Quite the opposite I think. By dismissing the argument based upon it source, rather than on its content, you're revealing that discussing the matter with you would be difficult. There's flaws in the argument, but it is basically cogent.

The biggest flaw is that most folk (even in D&D worlds) are not presented with events quite as remarkable and unexplainable as unconsumed yet burning bushes that speak and transform sticks to snakes. His argument holds pretty well for Moses - his is not merely a case of confirmation bias, but holds poorly for anyone but Moses. His point simply doesn't scale to the world at large.
 

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