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Why wouldn't Someone Learn Magic...

Andor

First Post
But why would the muggles have superior numbers? The magic using society has better healing and health in general. They can use magic to grow more crops. More food = larger popluation. They have better transportation and communication allowing for larger cities and more cohesive societies. They also have access to the planes and can get mercs from other worlds.

They can bypass the need for supply lines entirely with magic and the muggles cannot. Plus the MU can field much more efficient supply line raiders than the muggles can and can use divination magic to ambush the muggles raiders. The magic users have better command, control, communications, and intelligence. They also have superior mass and manuever and better logistical capability. Plus they should have raw numbers AS WELL. Plus they have force multipliers like bless and bards.

Sorry, but unless it's a really massive and hard to explain numerical superiority the muggles are doomed. :p :D
 

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fusangite

First Post
Andor said:
Sorry, but unless it's a really massive and hard to explain numerical superiority the muggles are doomed. :p :D
Even discounting everything else, you have one army that can heal itself and another that cannot. Well over 50% of magic using classes have the ability to heal themselves and others; and the remaining two can grant themselves temporary hit points. And then there are all the potions...

Furthermore, as you say, think of all the magic weapons that are implicit in the balance mechanics for high level non-magic users. What is the CR of a 15th level fighter with no gear? How would one fare against a 10th level fighter in proper magic gear as modeled in the DMG?

As you say, the opposing numerical advantage would have to be massive in the extreme.
 

Crothian

First Post
Andor said:
But why would the muggles have superior numbers?

They have a higher death rate so you'd need more kids. They would need a larger work force to do everything that the other guys do with magic.

But really this goes down as one of silliest arguements I've seen, it ranks right up there with "my imaginary friend can beat your imaginary friend".
 


Storyteller01

First Post
Andor said:
But why would the muggles have superior numbers? The magic using society has better healing and health in general. They can use magic to grow more crops. More food = larger popluation. They have better transportation and communication allowing for larger cities and more cohesive societies. They also have access to the planes and can get mercs from other worlds.

It takes nine months to create a human. Within 12 years they can fight, make able crewman, etc. Not so with the mage. Per D&D, your typical 1st level mage 18 to 22. Per the DMG, there are far fewer of them due to stats and training than there are commoners, warriors, fighters, rogues, rangers, etc.

Healing requires limited resources. You won't be able to field a whole society unless everyone is a cleric. Even then, this isn't guaranteed that overall health won't improved without many Heal checks involved.

Food produced by magic comes in limited supply, and most of that doesn't last more than a few rounds. A bigger populace means using land that usually can't maintain crops due to any number of reasons. Magic used to manipulate the weather, terrain, and other features would need to be in near constant use to maintain those crops, which still won't guarantee a good yield. That means using forces to protect these individuals if you want to maintain your food supply, a possible exploitable weakness.

More food also means a larger population, not a stable one. Training will have to increase if you want to train them all in magic. That means more reasources spent on training. This gives less for the mighty magic machine later on, as dead asters will need to be replaced. there's also no guarantee that you'll have the means to train them all. If the casters have the 'muggle' mentality, those not trained have to be dealt with somehow. If you send them out with the muggles, you reinforce their lines. If you turn them into slaves, you now have two fronts to worry about. If you kill them you risk casters defecting in anger.

Having constant communication and transportation requires constant exp expenditure (someone has to make the items). If you don't have the items, your having someone (or someones) constantly casting the spell. That menas less overall spells per day, and if that errant arrows takes out the messanger, your either screwed or forced to use someone else's spells to compensate.

There's also the use of your own items against you. If you can charm a muggle, the muggle can bribe a caster (I doubt the casters will do their own mining or labor).

They can bypass the need for supply lines entirely with magic and the muggles cannot.

Which means you have a limited use of that supply line. You'll have to constantly change when to use it to keep the non-mages from finding a pattern and using it against you. Muggles don't have this problem. They also know that if they keep you on the defensive with siege, you can't afford to waste spells to teleport brigands to disrupt supplies. Spellcraft is a cross class skill. If it comes down to a fight, the smart ones (and there are many) will learn it to find a weakness. You also have to pay those brigands, and resources you spend on spell components (1,000 gp diamond dust!!??) for one spell can outfit dozens of fighters on the other side.

Plus the MU can field much more efficient supply line raiders than the muggles can and can use divination magic to ambush the muggles raiders. The magic users have better command, control, communications, and intelligence. They also have superior mass and manuever and better logistical capability. Plus they should have raw numbers AS WELL. Plus they have force multipliers like bless and bards.

While I'll admit that they have the intel advantage, common sense and the DMG says they don't have the numbers. If you're constantly making weapons, that means only a few casters are gaining the higher level magics. The need to train to gain even the most minimally needed mass causalty spell (fireball) means the 'muggles' will have more swords and arms to use them than you'll have mages to counter the offensive.

Sorry, but unless it's a really massive and hard to explain numerical superiority the muggles are doomed. :p :D

The numbers are easy to explain; spellcasters can't produce effective casters as fast as the 'muggles' can produce effective fighters, rogues, rangers, etc. It's a matter of legistics. Look at magic as a form of advanced technology. As good as the US is, it can't use all that firepower to maintain control of lower tech level countries. Sure you can blackmail (or charm, in this case), but the masses have the advantage. They always have. A politicians only advatage is to keep them from co-operating. If yu don't, you'll get an occurance that makes the storming of the Bastile' (butchered spelling) look like a shopping spree.

Remember, mass combat can take hours. Most casters will go through their stock in minutes. Less if you're using it for summons, intell, supply, etc.

Look at it from an adevntures point of view. How often does a group have to stop and let their casters regain spells? How long does it take for this to no longer be a problem? Do you believe the muggles will let them rest after the fact? If the plan is to wait until they have enough casters for that to not happen, don't you think the 'muggles' will have them exponetially outnumbered?

If magic was the cure all, why hadn't house Slitheren simply taken over and be done with it?
 
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Storyteller01

First Post
Crothian said:
They have a higher death rate so you'd need more kids. They would need a larger work force to do everything that the other guys do with magic.

But really this goes down as one of silliest arguements I've seen, it ranks right up there with "my imaginary friend can beat your imaginary friend".

Sorry about that. I prefer to think of it as a comparison on tactics. :)
 

Crothian

First Post
Storyteller01 said:
Sorry you feel that way. I prefer to think of it as a comparison on tactics.

But you have nothing to really base it on. What are the numbers of each side? What are their strengths, levels, specific classes, location, setting, etc? All that is known is one side no magic and one side has magic, the rest is being made up. For instance, the magic side has magical weapons. But enough for everyone? That's a lot of money, time, and XP spent making those. THere are just too many undefined variables.
 

Storyteller01

First Post
Crothian said:
But you have nothing to really base it on. What are the numbers of each side? What are their strengths, levels, specific classes, location, setting, etc? All that is known is one side no magic and one side has magic, the rest is being made up. For instance, the magic side has magical weapons. But enough for everyone? That's a lot of money, time, and XP spent making those. THere are just too many undefined variables.

Pretty much my point. The orginal question was why haven't casters enslaved the rest. I was playing devil's advocate, loosely based on DMG demographics. It seemed that the use of magic as a mass weapon was mentioned without thought to those variables (no insult intended), so I went on a 'prove it' rant.
 

Mr. Draco

First Post
Take the case of small units as an example. On side A, you have 10 1st level fighters. On side B, you have 9 1st level fighters and a 1st level wizard. Which side wins in a conflict? This is really a tossup. It depends which spells the wizard has. If the wizard has sleep, side B has the best chances for a win. Presuming that side B has some tactical ability, they will have sleep prepared as all of (or almost all of) that wizard's spells.

What if it's not a wizard? 9 1st level fighters and a first level druid gets the same result when the druid prepares entangle.

A first level bard has inspire courage. Again, this gives advantage to the side with magic weilders.

Cleric? Bless and cure light wounds.

Sorcerror? Sleep again.

That just requires one magic user out of every ten fighters. Sometimes, though, that' a tough order, depending on the ratios and how your society recruits for its army. When you have far larger ratios, say 1 mage for every 100 fighters, it's still easy for those mages to make enough of a difference to tilt the favor of the battle.

This doesn't even count higher level spellcasters who canaccount for thousands of troops all by themselves.
 

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