Wierd Pete's lament in KODT #116 - is it true???

[Reynard]

Honestly, the subscription program as you just described it seems an awful lot like having a subscription to Dungeon or Dragon magazine.

But it isn't. At all.

I am not talking about periodicals (with all that implies), I am talking about dividing up (for Players) the Complete Books, the Race Books, the PHB II, the XPH, the Tome of Battle etc... over the course of a year in chunks that are consistent and useful.

For DMs, the content from the Environment books, Monster books, Magic Item books, etc... gets divied up over 12 issues.

That sort of thing.

In other words, you have a complete game witht eh Core and then a systematic development project, much like content updates for MMOs. One thing it might do is create a greater level of consitency between groups and campaigns, as everyone is getting the same updates at the same time.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

To me that sounds pretty awful.

 

[Kaodi]

Way Back When...

I'll admit, if I had high speed internet, I would probably be a WoW junkie. I was a MUD junkie, where I literally spent hours doing the same things over and over again, though often I would struggle to chat and level at the same time. Back in my glory days of MUDding though, we had a good group of friends going, and eventually I even met two of the people I met there, though I haven't had contact with them since a time when they lost their internet many years ago. We predicted a long time ago MUDs with real graphics. That being said, I eventually grew bored with MUDs. Someday, in maybe three to seven years, WoW will probably experience a drop in players who have just lost that loving feeling, aside from any competitors. Though I could be wrong. The fewer people that play WoW, the fewer servers there are, which means the more condensed the remaining players are, so essentially the experience may remain the same in terms of individually visible players ad infinitum.

That being said, if the content of D&D hardcovers shrinks any more while price stays the same, especially in my new favourite setting, then what is the point? MM2 was priced at $41.95 Cdn. for around 222 pages, while Secrets of Xen'drik is around 156... for $39.95... even Frostburn, at 224, was no were near ~$60, which is what it would be for page count... I guess what I am getting at, is whether there is something wrong with shelling out that kind of money, when the two covers are almost as thick as the 160 pages...

I'm not sure if I have ever seen a breakdown of the actual costs of making a D&D hardcover... *that* is something I would be really interested in.

(Not to mention the actually costs of selling a copy of a book in the US, versus selling a copy in Canada. If a book costs $29.95 US, then I would be fine with paying $34.95, which is still more than $1.50 over the actually straight exchange, but come on, $39.95? I want some hard numbers, not this obfuscation over the reason for it.)

 

[an_idol_mind]

But it isn't. At all.

I am not talking about periodicals (with all that implies), I am talking about dividing up (for Players) the Complete Books, the Race Books, the PHB II, the XPH, the Tome of Battle etc... over the course of a year in chunks that are consistent and useful.

For DMs, the content from the Environment books, Monster books, Magic Item books, etc... gets divied up over 12 issues.

That sort of thing.

In other words, you have a complete game witht eh Core and then a systematic development project, much like content updates for MMOs. One thing it might do is create a greater level of consitency between groups and campaigns, as everyone is getting the same updates at the same time.

The thing is, with computer games, it's just electronic data that gets stored away. When Neverwinter Nights released prestige classes or new monsters in a patch, it didn't mean extra work on my end; new options just showed up on my computer screen. With printed books, I think it would be more of a hassle. I certainly would prefer bringing a few 200+ page sourcebooks to the table than a dozen or so smaller updates that got shipped via mail. The only way I could find the notion somewhat bearable would be if they went the route of basic D&D and the books came three hole drilled with perforated pages. Even then, while I like the idea of having a DM binder, it's something that hasn't gone over well in the past (se the Monstrous Compendium experiment).

 

[JoeGKushner]

Ironically enough, the D&D hardcovers are some of the cheapest.

Silk Road? 160 b & w pages in softcover for $27.

Dynasties & Demigauges 160 b & w pages in hardcover (like 2 years ago) $30

Warhammer Old World Bestiary 128 full color pages in hardcover $30.

Tome of Battle, Book of Nine swords, 160 full color pages in hardcover $30.

Yeah, that evil WoTC always trying to rip us off.

 

[Jim Hague]

Ok, this old argument...again.

Folks - RPG books have not kept up with inflation. Books on sale now are on par or cheaper, relatively speaking, than their counterparts from the 1980s and 1990s. Whatever the other reasons for declining RPG sales, the reason you're seeing price points rise is that publishers are finally realizing that if they don't stay competitive in the market with other books, they'll become insolvent.

The market is in a slump right now, according to the best statistics we have available - granted, those statistics are self-reported from places like the FLGS, but they're the best we have. Ken Hite, GMS, Phil Reed, Robin Laws - these guys are recognized industry authorities from a broad spectrum of company environments, and every single one of them agrees on the point that the industry is in a slump, for whatever reason. The consensus (insofar as there is one) seems to be that the market is shaking out and consolidating after a flood of sub-par d20 products and distributors like Osseum running for the hills and laving companies like Green Ronin holding the bag.

MMOs? In my opinion, apples and oranges - out of the 20+ people I regularly game with, WoW drew exactly one of them away. 1/20th, 5%. The industry, I think, is far more hurt by a crippled distribution system, distributors like Osseum screwing companies, and a general slump in the market caused by too many bad products. YMMV.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'd buy more books if there were more cheaper softcover, or black and white, products. The C&C PHB and M&T books are a good deal at $20. Glossy pages never made my game better. A lot of people disagree I understand but that is my feeling on the subject.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Someday, in maybe three to seven years, WoW will probably experience a drop in players who have just lost that loving feeling, aside from any competitors.

They'll move onto the next MMORPG. Many of the first adopters of WoW were EQ1 veterans or DAoC veterans (themselves often EQ1 veterans), both of whom had a large number of UO veterans.

The overall numbers for MMORPG players just keep going up, not down.

Heck, there are even modestly successful MMORPGs out now (There and Second Life, among them) that don't charge a user fee, they make their money through other models instead. The barriers to entry are getting lower and lower, especially as more Americans get computers and more of them get high speed Internet. The penetration of both of those is far higher than experts were predicting even two years ago.

Our grandkids will be amused that anyone thought people interacting and playing games together online would be going away.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd buy more books if there were more cheaper softcover, or black and white, products. The C&C PHB and M&T books are a good deal at $20. Glossy pages never made my game better. A lot of people disagree I understand but that is my feeling on the subject.

Heck, Ptolus and the like show us that there are at least two tiers of purchasing interest in the market. Why not have a value priced tier and a higher priced tier? All WotC and White Wolf are doing at this point are the fancier, higher-priced stuff.

Roll out all the stuff initially in small black-and-white booklets, then collect revised and expanded versions of the most popular stuff into the higher-end glossy hardbacks for those who like that stuff.

You'd lower the barrier to entry for the new players everyone allegedly wants in the industry and still provide people who like hardbacks (like me) with what they want.

But if you have to pick and choose one end of the spectrum, putting all your eggs in the basket that's going to discourage many people from joining the hobby is a good way to get rid of the hobby.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What if it was real books? What if you bought the core D&D book and then received a 32 or 64 page supplement each month in the mail for, say, $60 or $100 for the year?

Out of the question.

Though I still buy most of the stuff Wizards puts out, I don't buy everything. I don't want to buy everything. Some things, I only buy if I get them cheap on eBay, some stuff I don't want at all.

This subscription would force me to buy stuff I don't want.

Plus, I don't think this would be as cheap as 100 bucks a year.