• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 4E Will 4E be backwards compatible?

KingCrab

First Post
Virel said:
Us older schoolers, will probably like 4e better than 3e, because it would be very hard for us to like less than we like 3e.

There are a hell of a lot of old schoolers that really enjoyed 3.5 right here on EN world. I started out with the D&D basic set (in the big red box) yet I've really come to enjoy a lot about 3.5. I love having a skill system, the fact that the saving throws make sense, I even love the rules for grappling (okay, I'm not going to be as popular on that issue.) I like the fact that fighters are customizable and a fight between two 10th level fighters depends a lot on feats chosen instead of only on attributes.

I don't think that old school/new school determines whether someone likes or hates 3.5. A lot of us old schoolers took some time, but fell in love with the system in the end.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Felix

Explorer
Zendragon said:
Still listening to these top 10 songs from 1987
# 1. Walk Like An Egyptian - Bangles
# 2. Alone - Heart
# 3. Shake You Down - Gregory Abbott
# 4. I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) - Whitney Houston
# 5. Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now - Starship
# 6. C'est La Vie - Robbie Nevil
# 7. Here I Go Again - Whitesnake
# 8. The Way It Is - Bruce Hornsby & The Range
# 9. Shakedown - Bob Seger
# 10. Livin' On A Prayer - Bon Jovi
Your entire argument crashed down to the sweet licks of Whitesnake. Bon Jovi then came along and kicked your point in the junk.
 

apoptosis

First Post
For me it is that it will probably be different enough that it wont have nostalgia value but it wont really have any innovation in the game like some of the indie games have.

I would be more excited if maybe they really revolutionized it and adopted more conflict resolution styles and maybe more player-controlled dramatic and scene power, while still staying with some of the sacred cows and ideas that give it a semblance of D&D
 

johnnype

First Post
Form the article on the InQuest website:

And yes, Wizards does recommend you begin new campaigns with Fourth Edition. “It’s not going to be as huge a jump,” as from Second Edition to Third Edition, said Slavicsek, “but there’s enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we’re not even gonna attempt it—we’re just telling you it’s better to start over.” Conversion went over like a lead balloon with Third Edition anyway.

Time to face reality, the new edition will cost you money. If anyone finds that objectionable then may I suggest you blame capitalism. Spending $40 on a 3.5 book or spending it on a 4.0 book is all the same to me.
 


Gothmog

First Post
Virel said:
...

The current edition is badly flawed in required prep time, load on the DM, excessive rules, the system is unfriendly to new players, and the books are so poorly written and uninteresting to read they can cure insomnia. I view 3e as failed game. It's ok to play but it sucks to DM compared to the early editions. I think they are really, really, really going to try and fix this flaw. My play group has some would be 3e players, they play AD&D with me because no one will step up to DM 3e due to the prep time. I probably would have DM'd some 3e for them if the system wasn't so time intensive because they are my friends despite my personal dislike of the 3e system.

A blessing would be if they threw everything out and start over from the ground up. Clean sheet of paper design. They probably won't do that, because it would be too risky. The magic system will probably get revamped. My guess is Vancian is gone as that is unpopular with many and will be the most fundamental change. If that changes, then almost all of the spells and their power levels have to be addressed in some manner. Epic will be at level 30 instead of 20. Characters will level more often, sort of mini-steps between the current levels. The core d20 concept will remain which is a shame given the chance to redefine the game. It will be possible to convert form 3/3.5 to 4th but it won't be as clean as 1e to 2e, or 3e to 4e, I think it will similar to 2e to 3e due to the magic system changes.

They'll probably try to address the lack of flavor that goes with the 3e product line and at least make the materials interesting to read and inspiring like the older books. They'll probably, go more old school feel and less cyber-punk D&D.


Yep, the prep time and rules bloat in 3E is the nail in the coffin, and the fatal flaw in its design. Pretty much every D20 game out there suffers from this flaw, with the exception of True 20 and SWSE. Me and my group came to this same conclusion about 3 years ago, and haven't touched D&D since- its just too much hassle for our fun.

Other things I'd like to see in 4E include:

Losing the bazillions of feats- combine feats into more useful abilities and stop the feat proliferation! Maybe combine a bunch of current feats into one larger Feat like Mobile Fighter, that combines Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, each activating once the character reaches a certain level. This would cut down on a lot of the paperwork and complexity, and help streamine the system.

The whole CR/EL thing- its wonky because it assumes a certain party makeup in the first place. I'd go back to an XP value per critter, based on its abilities.

No assumed level of wealth & magic per level guidelines. Instead offer advice for high magic, moderate magic, and low magic campaigns, and how to make the ruleset work with these.

Use talent trees for class special abilities, and the HP kicker like in SWSE.

Defense (Reflex, Fort, Will) ala SWSE.

A general streamlinging of the system to be MUCH faster to play and run.

Ways to handle non-combat encounters better. Borrow a page from Savage Worlds and allow for combat tricks, bluffs, demoralization, etc. Also, incorporate some of the excellent material from Dynasties and Demagogues from Atlas Games- they really had some good political ideas.


3E/3.5 was fatally flawed in a lot of ways for me (and apparently a lot of other people from comments I've read and heard at the table), and couldn't handle many varieties of playstyles. So in that regard, I hope 4E isn't very compatible with 3E- it would be basing the game design on some seriously flawed rules and assumptions. Make 4E more open, with fewer assumptions about the setting and magic level, and MUCH easier to prep and play, and I'll gladly buy into it! :D
 
Last edited:

Delta

First Post
Thinking about this tonight -- I bet the changes have to be more fundamental than the 2E->3E jump, actually, based on this quote from the InQuest article:

And yes, Wizards does recommend you begin new campaigns with Fourth Edition. “It’s not going to be as huge a jump,” as from Second Edition to Third Edition, said Slavicsek, “but there’s enough changing in the core system of how we are doing classes and races and characters that we’re not even gonna attempt it—we’re just telling you it’s better to start over.” Conversion went over like a lead balloon with Third Edition anyway.

I mean, it's sufficiently different that they won't even try to make conversion guidelines? The quote doesn't really make sense here -- ENWorld's conversion library for 3E pretty quickly filled up with a conversion of every previous piece of the D&D canon. Then they yanked it all for licensing reasons, provided new license guidelines, and then it filled up all over again. Even within the past few months I've seen people here inquiring on where they can find the official 2E->3E conversion document.
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
I never found the conversion guides to be terribly useful. It was never that difficult to just take the concept of a character or monster and re-build it using the new set of rules.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
thundershot said:
Could you imagine if there were internet message boards when 2E came out?
Keep this in mind, however: during both the 0e -> 1e and 1e -> 2e changes, there was a few years of overlap during which *both* editions were supported; you could play one with full support from the producing company while getting acquainted with the other. It wasn't until the 2e -> 3e change that we saw this complete and immediate dropping of all support for the previous edition as soon as the new one came out. 3e -> 4e will probably go the same way; it is, after all, the same company doing it.

Lanefan
 

WotC_Dave

First Post
I'm going to take a shot at answering this one. But the question is both broad and tricky. So you may see me conjure up a big wall of text.

Conversion? It'd be a quagmire...if you think of conversion as something essentially formulaic. The conversion document we did when 3.0 came out had a lot of "If your Strength was 18, now it's 20" and so on. That won't work this time around. And I'll contend that back in 2000, that conversion document only let you limp across the starting line. I'm pretty sure that most people would have been more excited and a lot less confused if we'd have just said in 2000: "Seriously, guys, finish up what you're doing and then start over."

I'm staring at the pretty much the same bookshelf full of 3.5 books as the rest of you. It's huge! There's just no way that a formulaic/algorithmic conversion process can cover all of that. And here's a question back at you: Even if gave you such a process, would you trust it, or would you do your own thing anyway?

So I'll offer up an alternative to conversion: reinterpretation. Between the core books and the stuff on Insider, you should have the raw materials to "faithfully reinterpret" your favorite 3.5 characters. Their stats and various mechanical elements? Many will be different. But the fundamentals--who your dude is and what he does in time of peril--will be the same.

Maybe an example will suffice. I've long used my Thursday night buddies as a testbed for whatever crazy D&D stuff I've been working on. And a few months ago, I dropped the "we're switching to 4e...tonight!" bomb on them. Half of these guys are my fellow designers, so they know the rules as well as anyone. But for the other half, this was out of the blue.

They got a 20-minute whiteboard lecture from me on the fundamental rules changes. Then they got all the character creation rules and the combat chapter. I told them to start reading, then "faithfully reinterpret" their 3.5 characters as best they could. 90 minutes later, we were playing.

Were they converted characters? No way. We had only eight classes and a handful of races. More than a few PCs have new races, new classes, or both. Likewise, they completely re-equipped. But if you squint, Bruce's character is doing pretty much the same mindblasting stuff he always did. Toby's character is still the fulcrum around which the party's tactics revolve. And Cam has another in a long string of brave but lightly armored characters with a penchant for mischief.

It's worth noting that on that night, I had some significant advantages. I had three other designers who could whip up their new characters quickly, then help the guys who were coming to terms with the new rules set. And I'm a little sad that my Thursday night guys didn't get a really kickass low-level experience, starting out instead at 7th level. But it worked, and our campaign rolls on.

So formulaic conversion? I can't see a way to make that work. But a faithful reinterpetation? I know that works because it worked at my table. You just have to be willing to squint a little.

--David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top