Will D&D make strength matter again?

[Mistwell]

I find dexterity outshines strength dramatically when multiclass martial/rogue characters come into play. You can cherry pick rogue levels that really stack a ton of damage on to multiple attacks and you get a huge defensive buff by using the feat that allows you to add dex to AC as a reaction to an attack. Strength is only useful if you go two-handed and even then it is outmatched by a fighter/rogue very quickly.

You didn't reply to pretty much any of the points I made. Is there some reason you quoted me?

 

[iamntbatman]

I think, if you're looking at combat alone, the two are fairly evenly matched. There are lots of really strong optimizing builds using both stats.

The disparity comes from the utility of the stats outside of combat. I'd say that even DM's who make everyone roll athletics checks frequently for things like climbing and jumping would still probably have the usefulness of athletics about on par with stealth, and the strength guy is fairly likely to be wearing stealth disadvantage heavy armor. More frequently, I think having one or two party members who specialize in athletics basically covers things, but decent stealth scores can help out just about anyone. On top of that, dex is also used for acrobatics, sleight of hand, and initiative.

It could really come down to the DM rather than RAW game mechanics, but I think the biggest offender is definitely the non-combat disparity, and trying to make up for that by making people regret dumping strength for the exploration pillar.

 

[Horwath]

They are such a sacred cow the 6 attributes. But if i were to have my way id have strengtgh encompassing con, and deex and agility split into seperate attributes.

No more agile and high ac jewellers!

That would make dex and agi both too weak.

Jewelers can explain their high skill bonus with expertise in tools, not just high natural dex.

 

[Unwise]

Personally I think that complaints around Dex being too good tend to come from groups that let Acrobatics be used in place of Athletics after watching too many Jackie Chan movies. Athletics is probably the most used skill in my games behind Perception. It is probably the most important though, as only one person needs to succeed at a perception roll most of the time. It is for almost everything physical other than balance, falling and timing.

Athletics has a significant combat application, especially during theatre of the mind. For instance "Can I get to that guy with 25' movement?" is often met with "hmm its borderline, make an atheltics check to push yourself". Same goes with with leaping over barrels to hit the guys behind etc.

As has been said before, Str based guys have access to the best combat feats. Dex guys on the other hand will always choose to put up their stat. +1AC, +1 attack, +1init, +1damage is too much to pass up in exchange for second tier feats. I think that the two are balanced enough, but Dex is more important to a Dex guy than Str is to a Str guy, thus freeing up a Str guy to get other things.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Please elaborate on too complex. All I did was give a weak sneak attack feature that you can get 1 extra die of damage per attack. So at 5th level you get an extra two dice to add to damage rolls per round.

You've added an extra resource that the player has to track and spend, which refreshes every round. Allocating that between your various attacks is significantly more complex than simply deciding after successfully hitting to apply sneak attack damage, and sneak attack was already more complex than anything the fighter or barbarian had to deal with every round.

I'm not saying that it's too complex to work at the table, for a certain kind of player who is into that. I'm saying that it's more complex than it needs to be, in order to shift the balance back in favor of Strength-based weapons. There's no reason to add extra decision points to the attack process if your goal is just to increase the damage output. Extra decision points should only be added where they are absolutely necessary, or if (for whatever reason) complexity is your design goal.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Athletics has a significant combat application, especially during theatre of the mind. For instance "Can I get to that guy with 25' movement?" is often met with "hmm its borderline, make an atheltics check to push yourself".

That's not a failure of anyone else to distinguish between Athletics and Acrobatics. That's you making up new stuff in order to make Athletics seem more appealing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it carries exactly as much weight as some other DM allowing a Perception check to notice a vine that they can swing on to move slightly further in the round.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I find dexterity outshines strength dramatically when multiclass martial/rogue characters come into play. You can cherry pick rogue levels that really stack a ton of damage on to multiple attacks and you get a huge defensive buff by using the feat that allows you to add dex to AC as a reaction to an attack. Strength is only useful if you go two-handed and even then it is outmatched by a fighter/rogue very quickly.

Multiple attacks generally stay ahead of sneak attack due to adding their ability bonus and other modifiers to every attack. Combining multiple attacks and sneak attack can make sneak attack more reliable, but is generally a loss of overall damage even for styles other than two-handed.
A pure Fighter will generally deal out more damage than a Fighter/Rogue for example, particularly at and after the levels that they get extra attacks.

 

[Horwath]

Or buff up all non finesse weapons by one die step

I.E. longsword 1d10, greatsword/greataxe 2d8,

 

[CubicsRube]

That would make dex and agi both too weak.

Jewelers can explain their high skill bonus with expertise in tools, not just high natural dex.

Yes that was an off hand comment and not really the main point.

I think dedxterity and agility are different and valuable enough to be their own skills.

From a d&d context, dexterity is essentially an accuracy stat as well as sleight of hand, theives tools etc. Agility would be about speed, initiative and defence as adding to ac.

It is my opinion and it surely will differ from others, but i see a bigger sivide between dex and agi than with str and con, bith from a conceptual and a game point of view

 

[CapnZapp]

Strength-based melee fighters are not lacking for damage in this edition.

He didn't say that. He said great weapon fighting was "tired", so the reasonable assumption is that he's talking about one handed weapons.

And indeed he is; he specifically brings up longsword and battleaxe.