Will the real martial artist please stand up...

[Garthanos]

Truthfully you don't need very many weapons in the game. Most of the distinctions are fairly arbitrary. You need basically a dagger, an arming sword, a bastard sword, and a full two-hander. Then you need what? A club/mace, an axe, a hammer, a flail, and two-handed variations thereof. Then you'll want a spear, and a pike for spears. A poleaxe, a glaive, and maybe a fork. One and two-handed staves round things out. That actually covers all the basic forms of weapons.

There are some minor variations, like slight variations on chain-type weapons, a few variations of swords and daggers (back swords and sabres, punching daggers, etc.) but those ESSENTIALLY function in nearly identical ways with the more conventional variations (which probably explains why they've never been very prevalent).

Probably won't be duplicating missile weapons ... but I might do something with the sling where you do snap throws which allow one to gain the reach and range of a sling (oh look perhaps a martial art for bilbo).

Staves and Chain weapons have a tradition of direct use by the "martial artists" so I might not do techniques which count as those... but a drunken monkey martial art might use chain flexibiity in its attack techniques so I might still use it.

 

[Garthanos]

Right, I remember now. A solid idea.

I think its very functional it gives the Martial Artist back to martial in spades, but it has to be done with good flavor

In terms of properties, a few might work: Brutal, High-crit, defensive, even off-hand/versatile/two-handed (you can one-two combo jabs, you can't combo a flying spin kick)...

Weapons are mostly just a matter of fluff and opening up feat trees and power specials. You use a spear, you can use the Spear Push feat and some fighter powers gain an extra rider. You use a dagger, you can SA. Etc...

Yes I want to support those...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You know how a Khopesh counts as a heavy blade and an axe is there a value of something counting as a pick or a light blade?
For instance a hooking finger jab. (I guess that would be whether their are pick based powers)

What is a 'hooking' jab? Poke with a finger, you poke, doesn't really matter if your finger is straight or not, it is roughly the same as poking someone with a stick, so why not call it a 'staff' move? Honestly, to me, the uniqueness of unarmed moves isn't in how they emulate weapons, it is in how the routines are very quickly concatenated together (IE kata), the speed of delivery, lack of need for an actual weapon, etc. In effect I think you can safely consider the mechanics of such attacks as either blows like a club or a poke, or grabs and holds, or push/pull/throw, or finally actual holds (IE grappling).

I think one problem is 4e's grappling system is very simplistic and doesn't work well.

 

[Garthanos]

What is a 'hooking' jab? Poke with a finger, you poke, doesn't really matter if your finger is straight or not, it is roughly the same as poking someone with a stick, .

Hooking in this case was me considering a different arm motion yes the fingers doing the poke part in this case... its not the best example I grant

I am also figuring other adjectives ... like lunging to be using more body weight.

Honestly, to me, the uniqueness of unarmed moves isn't in how they emulate weapons

Shrug the game system has huge amounts of mechanics tying powers and benefits of feats to weapons and weapon types adding a club like hand is ditching a lot of interesting things.

An axe uses mass and torque and edge and a motion style .. where a martial artist tends to replace edge with locational vulnerability. They still use more mass or less mass in how much body weight is exerted in to the move... so a lunge punch will be a somewhat longer heavier analog weapon... a flying move will involve even more motion and analogous effects of reach and so on. A karate chop emulates axe like motions.

Operating within the system I think emulating weapons does the job and doesnt pretend there are huge benefits that need buried behind feat costs.

 

[Garthanos]

D&D already has take downs and grabs etc they are tied to powers and we have even in the players handbook only 4 elaborate classes with builds and so on which have all of that stuff except unarmed attacks and defenses being as effective as armed/armored within the context of those classes/builds.

 

[Garthanos]

OK now below is the fighter I built earlier... there are things I chose for him that were attempts to build the martial artist without any of these Martial Techniques, first issue I had was I felt it locked down a lot of choices. For one thing Benn has to be human to get the two feats needed to be even ball park. His multi-classing as a monk a requirement instead of an option and the feat for unarmored agility to make things even half way work defensively basically it feels like 2 feat expenditures and race choice become flavor down a tube. It isnt powers that are lacking that allow Benn to feel like the martial artist... those work pretty fine.

Benn, level 1
Human, Fighter
Build: Brawling Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Background: Explorer/Guide (Explorer/Guide Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9.


AC: 16 Fort: 19 Reflex: 14 Will: 12
HP: 25 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Nature +8, Athletics +9, Endurance +5, Heal +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering +1, History, Insight +1, Intimidate -1, Perception +1, Religion, Stealth +3, Streetwise -1, Thievery +3

FEATS
Human: Master of the Fist
Level 1: Unarmored Agility

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Knockdown Assault
Fighter at-will 1: Grappling Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Bash and Pinion
Fighter daily 1: Seize and Stab

ITEMS
Monk Unarmed Strike

So instead of requiring those feats he might choose to be trained in (and pay for)

The Dragon Defensive Technique (A deep stance Yin technique that includes interfering in the enemies attacks more than evading them ) - directly analogous to scale armor.

A flexible Karate Technique which allows both agressive Lunging Punches(front kicks too) and Chops(Snap Kick) as well - mechanically analogous to a Kopesh.

He might even be a Razor Claw Shifter.... or a Dragonborn

 

[Garthanos]

It occurs to me that for many of these martial techniques I am wanting them to be superior versions of melee weapons which do not have superior versions. This can carry the "look how special they are" factor and fill in basic holes. (

I am considering converting light thrown or heavy thrown on techniques to versatile or having an additional weapon group. (But looking at the obvious example of the dagger not sure the rogue would need either of those)

 

[Garthanos]

If a technique is a superior version I could present it as the central peice of a martial art and allow them to be purchased in character builder as a feat ... but instead of getting a bland club you get a superior weapon proficiency (where the feat cost is really going) and an armor item and weapon item.

The technique items can be aquired independently but by wrapping in the feat gives it some flavor front end I feel and mayhaps allows for easier choosing.

 

[Garthanos]

And idea about using alternate attributes for light AC.
Zen ( Insight / Perceptual) Defense --> Wisdom bonus with light armor and natural stance techniques , instead of using Dex/Int. For the current martial classes this might not even be cost worthy.

Interfering Defense - > Strength bonus with light armor and natural stance techniques, instead of using Dex/Int.

Deceptive Defense - > Charisma

Instinctive Defense - > Constitution (this could be seen in a different way as already be happening in hit points)

Some of these might be packaged in a Martial Art feat

The idea is for martial classes and as much about enabling different flavors as anything else, in some ways they definitely do not need to be "better" at armor class just a different style.

 

[Garthanos]

And idea about using alternate attributes for light AC.
Zen ( Insight / Perceptual) Defense --> Wisdom bonus with light armor and natural stance techniques , instead of using Dex/Int. For the current martial classes this might not even be cost worthy.

Interfering Defense - > Strength bonus with light armor and natural stance techniques, instead of using Dex/Int.

Deceptive Defense - > Charisma

Instinctive Defense - > Constitution (this could be seen in a different way as already be happening in hit points)

Some of these might be packaged in a Martial Art feat

The idea is for martial classes and as much about enabling different flavors as anything else, in some ways they definitely do not need to be "better" at armor class just a different style.

Aside from the Strength based one I am not sure if this idea would have any impact on balance and given the fighters focus on AC anyway not sure how much that one would.

Perhaps knowing one or more natural stance defense technique would allow you to choose an alternative style (attribute) for that armor class.