Will this work?

[Cion]

Iron will and great fortitude. Great "whatever" save usually means poor "the other two" saves. We house ruled that you stack your levels went multiclassing in classes that gives the same save or bab progression.

I already tried to introduce the same house rule in our group, but unfortunatly our DM thinks the others members just want to look at the charts and see what changes.
They are having problems with the rules right now, and our DM is afraid to modify them

 

[Cion]

Because bardic abilities cap out at a fairly low power they are quickly replaced by various bolstering spells that don't stack and give larger bonuses to the party as well as penalize the enemy. +1 spellcaster level for a bard isn't nearly the advantage that it is for a full caster. You should ask your DM for a -2 ECL modifier for that combination. An extra 2 levels should put you on equal footing with other party members.

Ouch!
-2 ECL
That hurt...

Back to the Drawing Board...

 

[Pylar]

Perform

Things I don´t like
- Will have to take further levels in Bard to keep the Perform-Score high enough.
- My Bardic-Lore check will suck!


Isn't perform a class skill for rogues too?? YOu can put points into that for your entire characters carrier I'm not sure if Arcane Trickster offers perform as a class skill or not. I don't have Song & Silence

 

[Zhure]

Perform is a class skill for Rogues, but not Arcane Tricksters. You could always take Education or Versatile, but it'd probably be better to just pay cross class points. Even worst-case, that's only 20 skill points across the entire non-epic life of the character.

Greg

 

[Archer]

Perform points over 12 do nothing, at least until 3.5 rules come out. With a total of 9 levels in bard and rogue you'd never spend a point cross class. Inspire greatness will be the only power you'll use and it gives a whopping +2 to hit and +2 HD.

The biggest drawback to being a bard is no ranged touch attack spells. Your BAB is going to be very low, at 11th level with 3 rogue, 7 bard and 1 trickster you'll have a bab of +7/+2. If you read the ray of frost thread you can see how effective even a simple 0th level ranged touch spell can be.

 

[Darklone]

Check out the KoK PG. Eyes of Fury feat chain might be interesting for high Charisma guys like you. (as well as Blind Shot).

Skill Prodigy might give you several additional class skills... though you won't need that IMHO.

Get your hand at a wand of Divine Favor at all costs. This will raise your archery damage incredibly.

About talking to your DM... Ask him perhaps if he would lower the prerequisites of Arcane Trickster to Bard level5.

No problem about ranged combat feats, you only need PBS and Rapid Shot... Though your low BAB will ****.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Because bardic abilities cap out at a fairly low power they are quickly replaced by various bolstering spells that don't stack and give larger bonuses to the party as well as penalize the enemy. +1 spellcaster level for a bard isn't nearly the advantage that it is for a full caster. You should ask your DM for a -2 ECL modifier for that combination. An extra 2 levels should put you on equal footing with other party members.

....and....

Perform points over 12 do nothing, at least until 3.5 rules come out. With a total of 9 levels in bard and rogue you'd never spend a point cross class. Inspire greatness will be the only power you'll use and it gives a whopping +2 to hit and +2 HD.

Ever heard of something called roleplaying? It's not just about having the most efficient char, but about having fun and having an original char! (I never got the idea of making a bard/trickster, but it really fits). You sometimes choose stuff not because it will increase your power, but because it will make the charakter more authentic. So he'll want to max out Perform in order to be the best of minstrels, not to get better bardic music abilities.

And if he wants to have a powerhouse, he'll play something else, and not ask the DM silly things like giving him more levels, because his class combo is crappy, powerwise (that's AD&D).

 

[Pielorinho]

KaeYoss, I dunno if you've ever had a strong roleplay character that can't contribute to action scenes at all. If Cion is playing in a game with even one fight per session on average, he's really going to want a character that can contribute effectively to fights. From experience, I can tell you that playing a combat-sucky character in such a campaign is no fun -- and if there's a standard amount of combat in the campaign, it'd be positively miserable.

Part of the challenge of 3E is trying to find a way to have both an original and an effective PC. I'm working on just this issue now with my druid, whom I want to turn into an earth-based caster. Using the core books, he can cast...

...hmm...

...Stone Shape! Soften earth and stone! Spike stones! ooh, scary!

Anyway, I think Cion is being totally appropriate trying to find ways to make his PC more effective.

Your BAB isn't going to be as terrible as I first thought it'd be: at eleventh level, it'll be +7, compared to a straight rogue or bard's BAB of +8. Nevertheless, you'll probably want to focus on dex-based attacks. As a halfling, don't forget your bonus with thrown weapons.

Consider, then, the following feats:
Imp Init
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot

Get a HHH as soon as possible, and keep a lot of flasks of acid and alchemist's fire in there. Pulling them from the haversack is a free action, so by ninth level, you can throw three of them per round; if you get initiative and catch the enemy flatfooted within 30', you'll be rolling +6 (BAB) +1(size) +1(point-blank) +1(halfling thrown weapon) +4 (dex) -2 (rapid shot) = +11/+11/+6, touch attacks, against flatfooted opponents, doing 1d6 +2d6 (sneak attack) +1 (Point blank shot) fire damage per successful attack. That's a reasonable potential of 9d6+3, or an average of 34 points, of damage in the first round of combat. Not too shabby.

You could also look at Dragon 302 for its (excellent, IMO) parrying feats. I just finished playing a 7th-level halfling rogue with weapon finesse (dagger), expertise, and parry, and I very rarely got hit in combat (that is, until a huge fire elemental grappled me and charred me to a crisp -- but that's another story). And it's very easy to imagine a small bard/rogue getting funky with the parry action.

I would rely on a cloak of resistance and on your natural halfling good luck for your saves; just in case, however, ask the party wizard to keep a protection from evil and a dispel magic handy.

Good luck -- this sounds like a fun character!
Daniel

 

[Kae'Yoss]

KaeYoss, I dunno if you've ever had a strong roleplay character that can't contribute to action scenes at all. If Cion is playing in a game with even one fight per session on average, he's really going to want a character that can contribute effectively to fights. From experience, I can tell you that playing a combat-sucky character in such a campaign is no fun -- and if there's a standard amount of combat in the campaign, it'd be positively miserable.

Part of the challenge of 3E is trying to find a way to have both an original and an effective PC.

If you want a effective character, go for it. If you want to do strong roleplay, go ahead. If you want to combine it, sure, do it. But if you want to do something special that is only one of it (and that's usually a char for strong roleplay), and can't be changed without bending the rules (not that I think that you can't make a good rogue/bard/arcane trickster. He'll not be a candidate for the Sultans of Smack, but he will be effective, IMO), you either play him or not. You don't bend the rules (with negative ECL or such silliness).

Also, I have in fact had a character with more ranks in perform than he needed (he needed three, because he wanted to become bladesinger, and now he has 15 or something), more than will give him any tangible benefit, but he's still effective. AND I have done more than just using the rules to min/max the character. I don't think it will hurt our trickster here to put more than 12 ranks into perform, and he can say he's a better minstrell than all those min-maxer bards out there!

 

[Pielorinho]

Also, I have in fact had a character with more ranks in perform than he needed (he needed three, because he wanted to become bladesinger, and now he has 15 or something), more than will give him any tangible benefit, but he's still effective. AND I have done more than just using the rules to min/max the character.

That's fine -- it just sounded like you were coming down really hard on people for trying to make effective characters. Although I wouldn't allow the -2 ECL adjustment IMC, I can understand why the suggestion was made.

For my own nonminmax creds, my last character, designed to delve into RttToEE, had 5 ranks of profession: sailor, 5 ranks of swim, a ring of swimming, and a rope of climbing -- not exactly minmaxed. He had these things because he was an ex-pirate, looking to make a new life for himself. He also had other stuff designed to make him effective in combat -- a high tumble check, weapon finesse: dagger, and so forth. Certainly it's more fun to play a character with personality and nonminmaxed choices; however, if you go too far in that direction, you risk creating a character who sits on the sidelines during combat to watch the action. My first 3E character, a necromancer wizard/cleric, is a prime example of that phenomenon.

Daniel