Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

[TheCosmicKid]

I'm not really understanding how "xe" or "hir" are any more onerous than saying "he" or "his". People learn new words all the time, and most of them are not monosyllabic.

Pronouns occupy a special, closed category in a language's lexicon. It very, very rarely gets new membership. The last time English did it was when it picked up the Norse "she" and "they" back in the 900s, and linguists are still kind of scratching their heads over how that happened because it was really weird. (For comparison, English got none of the pronouns of Norman French.)

So -- speaking technically, without casting any judgment on the value of such efforts -- it is not accurate to compare adopting a new pronoun to adopting a new noun or adjective or verb.

EDIT: Correction -- "They" came from Old Norse. "She" evolved from the demonstrative pronoun, and is somewhat less weird of a development.

There's also always the singular "they", which again, predates both "he or she" and the generic "he", and which most modern grammarians have no concern over.

This seems to be where the English language is headed on the matter.

(It's not quite right to say it predates the generic "he", though.)

 

[Gradine]

Pronouns occupy a special, closed category in a language's lexicon. It very, very rarely gets new membership. The last time English did it was when it picked up the Norse "she" and "they" back in the 900s, and linguists are still kind of scratching their heads over how that happened because it was really weird. (For comparison, English got none of the pronouns of Norman French.)

So -- speaking technically, without casting any judgment on the value of such efforts -- it is not accurate to compare adopting a new pronoun to adopting a new noun or adjective or verb.

EDIT: Correction -- "They" came from Old Norse. "She" evolved from the demonstrative pronoun, and is somewhat less weird of a development.

As fascinating as this is, the world is composed of few grammarians and etymologists, professional or otherwise. I'd wager for the vast majority of the English-speaking world, pronouns are just words, like all the other words. Heck, I'd wager that there's a small but not insignificant chunk of that population that couldn't tell you the difference. Language changes all the time, and we often develop new words to describe new phenomena. Hell, there's a solid sliver of the English language, like 1500 words (both new words and new uses/conjugations of old words), we can accurately attribute the invention of to one man (William Shakespeare).

There is really no reason or principle to stand on to resist adopting new words in order to respect the identities of others. Unless one is deliberate in not ascribing to a theory of multiple genders or the existence of a gender spectrum, and therefore there must be something wrong with those who attempt to break free of the gender binary. Which is definitely a position. And honestly, it's one that I wish more people would be upfront about rather than hiding behind Strunk & White.

For those that are genuinely interested in treating non-gender-conforming individuals with respect and dignity, I found this helpful flowchart that really gets to the root of how simple this really is:

 

[TheCosmicKid]

As fascinating as this is, the world is composed of few grammarians and etymologists, professional or otherwise. I'd wager for the vast majority of the English-speaking world, pronouns are just words, like all the other words. Heck, I'd wager that there's a small but not insignificant chunk of that population that couldn't tell you the difference. Language changes all the time, and we often develop new words to describe new phenomena. Hell, there's a solid sliver of the English language, like 1500 words (both new words and new uses/conjugations of old words), we can accurately attribute the invention of to one man (William Shakespeare).

I'm aware that language changes all the time. I'm trying to tell you, as a matter of fact, that this is one part of language that doesn't. This is not a matter just for "grammarians and etymologists". It is a description of how normal everyday speakers of languages behave over time, whether or not they understand consciously what they're doing.

Shakespeare coined zero pronouns.

 

[Gradine]

I'm aware that language changes all the time. I'm trying to tell you, as a matter of fact, that this is one part of language that doesn't. This is not a matter just for "grammarians and etymologists". It is a description of how normal everyday speakers of languages behave over time, whether or not they understand consciously what they're doing.

Except that it has, as a matter of fact, changed. You provided two examples yourself (the generic "he", I learned, was also borrowed from Latin). It's rarer yes (because as a general rule we need fewer pronouns than we need nouns or verbs), but it still happens, either as a part of the the natural transmission of language or as a deliberate choice. English grammarians have been debating the proper gender-neutral singular term for at least a century, if not much, much longer, to the apparent satisfaction of nobody. Why resist a change that helps to increase clarity?

 

[MoonSong]

Except that it has, as a matter of fact, changed. You provided two examples yourself (the generic "he", I learned, was also borrowed from Latin). It's rarer yes (because as a general rule we need fewer pronouns than we need nouns or verbs), but it still happens, either as a part of the the natural transmission of language or as a deliberate choice. English grammarians have been debating the proper gender-neutral singular term for at least a century, if not much, much longer, to the apparent satisfaction of nobody. Why resist a change that helps to increase clarity?

[Sorry for breaking the silence, but it seems the topic is a different one?]
Core parts of a language do change, but they change slowly, too slowly actually. It is possible to observe many linguistic changes in one's lifetime -America is in the middle of a consonant shift as we speak-, but ultra common core words hardly ever change.

That's the thing with language, the most common something is, the most resilient it is to change. Linguistic special cases hardly ever last without reverting to the general form. Except -that is- if that special case happens too often, then it becomes resilient and harder to change. Just take a look at irregular verbs, they are extremely common in everyday speech, but uncommon, corner-case verbs, they all are regular. The same with German and strong verbs. And with irregular nouns -like person- and adjectives. They are part of the most common 500 words in English.

Articles and pronouns form an even more common class of words. They are extremely common and form the basis for English language. Once you learn their proper use, you have basically learnt English. It may seem strange, but getting the proper use of pronouns -and auxiliary verbs- is the most challenging part of learning English as a second language, precisely because they are the most intensive in use. They also carry a heavy burden in meaning. Just try to use I,Me,My, Mine to talk about a third person.

NOt saying that this change cannot happen, but it is quite unlikely. It would take a lot of people adopting the same new pronoun and sticking to it for a few centuries until it becomes second nature for a lot of people.

 

[Lychee of the Exch.]

There is really no reason or principle to stand on to resist adopting new words in order to respect the identities of others. Unless one is deliberate in not ascribing to a theory of multiple genders or the existence of a gender spectrum[...]

That would be me.

[...]and therefore there must be something wrong with those who attempt to break free of the gender binary.

Everybody has his reasons, but I'm not privy with everybody's reasoning. On principle I don't judge people on one singular aspect of their beliefs, therefore I think that some of "those who are trying to break free of gender binary" are in the wrong, and some others have their cogent reasons, which I haven't been acquainted with - or convinced by.

Those who deem there must be something fundamentally wrong with people whose opinions differ from theirs are ideologues or true believers - of which there are some examples in this thread. I'm not that (or at least, I'm trying not to be).

Which is definitely a position. And honestly, it's one that I wish more people would be upfront about rather than hiding behind Strunk & White.

I'm glad I could be of service ;-).

For those that are genuinely interested in treating non-gender-conforming individuals with respect and dignity,

That would be me too.

I found this helpful flowchart that really gets to the root of how simple this really is:

View attachment 98388

That chart is much too loud for my taste. Also it reeks to me of self-righteousness and a sense of unearned moral superiority - but I admit it could be an adverse reaction to this naïve admonition.

Q.:" What pronoun do you use for a transgender person ?"
A.: It would depend. Probably a feminine or masculine pronoun.

Regarding: "Whatever they use for themselves" and "If you don't know, politely ask[..]": I strive to be polite (most of the time), which does not mean in the least that anyone gets to dictate my speech. Words are important, and who attempts to dictate the use of words attempt to shape our perception of reality. Just (re-)read George Orwell.

 

[Sunseeker]

That would be me.

Everybody has his reasons, but I'm not privy with everybody's reasoning. On principle I don't judge people on one singular aspect of their beliefs, therefore I think that some of "those who are trying to break free of gender binary" are in the wrong, and some others have their cogent reasons, which I haven't been acquainted with - or convinced by.

Those who deem there must be something fundamentally wrong with people whose opinions differ from theirs are ideologues or true believers - of which there are some examples in this thread. I'm not that (or at least, I'm trying not to be).

I just want to point out, these two statements are contradictory.

Regarding: "Whatever they use for themselves" and "If you don't know, politely ask[..]": I strive to be polite (most of the time), which does not mean in the least that anyone gets to dictate my speech. Words are important, and who attempts to dictate the use of words attempt to shape our perception of reality. Just (re-)read George Orwell.

No, they can't force you to call them what they would prefer.

But it is an exemplary litmus test to distinguish between the tolerant and the intolerant.

I look at it this way: what is the opportunity cost by calling them their pronoun of choice? What do you in this context, lose by referring to people by their preferred pronoun?

I mean, by simple virtue of being on this forum we do it all the time without even blinking an eye. Hint: they're called usernames.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Except that it has, as a matter of fact, changed. You provided two examples yourself (the generic "he", I learned, was also borrowed from Latin). It's rarer yes (because as a general rule we need fewer pronouns than we need nouns or verbs), but it still happens, either as a part of the the natural transmission of language or as a deliberate choice. English grammarians have been debating the proper gender-neutral singular term for at least a century, if not much, much longer, to the apparent satisfaction of nobody. Why resist a change that helps to increase clarity?

You seem to be attributing the resistance to malice, though, so it's pertinent to point out that there are deeper linguistic explanations for it. I can predict, with quite a high degree of confidence, that "xe" will not be a regular English third-person singular pronoun in a hundred years. But I can also predict, with comparable confidence, that "they" will be. As the need for a gender-neutral pronoun has increased, "they" has observably, measurably expanded in use to meet that need, and "xe" has made no such progress. Why fight an uphill battle -- more like running into a cliffside, really -- when you don't have to?

(And the generic "he" isn't from Latin.)

 

[Eltab]

Why resist a change that helps to increase clarity?

Will it be OK to resist a change that decreases clarity?

 

[jasper]

....


We are talking about having a specific person say, "please use this form of address." You don't need to know the jargon, or understand all the underlying stuff. You need to understand that a fellow human being made a request. Do you show them the basic respect of doing your level best to abide by a small request, or not? That's the question.

...

Does being 54 count with Granny? I have one of my semi regulars is trans. First time he show up I used the wrong pronoun a lot. But the couple corrected me. And I told them keep correcting me to get right. I did this out loud and very loudly so the whole table would start correcting me. Since they are still gaming at my table, I assume they are forgiving my slip ups.
BUT a DRACONIAN third party got ticked I did not use the correct pronoun off the bat. They back channeled to tell me I was "not welcoming ya ya ya and evil old fart". The third party has not sit at my table since.