WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Bullgrit]

Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)

Things like having multiple ways of getting from the first great hall to the second great hall don't make it non-linear. It's like if a dungeon had Room 1 with three doors (A, B, C) all leading to Room 2. A, B, and C may use three different tricks/gimmicks, but if they all still lead to Room 2, that's linear. Right?

For the record, I don't consider linearness to be a bad thing in itself. For something like the Tomb of Horrors, a linear path through the trap laden dungeon makes perfect sense. It's a dungeon gauntlet, not a dungeon exploration.

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)

Things like having multiple ways of getting from the first great hall to the second great hall don't make it non-linear. It's like if a dungeon had Room 1 with three doors (A, B, C) all leading to Room 2. A, B, and C may use three different tricks/gimmicks, but if they all still lead to Room 2, that's linear. Right?

I see your point, but I don't agree. When I made that last post, I was thinking mostly about WotC's 4E adventures, many/most of which move the PC's directly from Encounter Area 1 to Encounter Area 2 with no discretion at all about how they get there. At their worst, WotC's adventures give the players no choice beyond "go to the next encounter or stop playing this adventure." They aren't "Room 1 has three doors that lead to Room 2." They're "Room 1 has one door that leads to Room 2."

In the ToH, the PC's might teleport directly from Area 5 to Area 10. Or they might go through Areas 8 and 9, having a combat encounter with the Gargoyle and a whatever you want to call it encounter with Area 9. Or they might teleport to Area 7 and find their way to Area 10 by solving Area 7 and finding the secret door in the crawlspace. The ultimate destination is the same, but there are three paths to follow, and each provides a different experience with different types and degrees of risk. It's not I6, but it's not Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress either.

Now what I don't like is that the PC's really don't have anyway to make an informed choice about what they're doing. There's little/nothing to indicate that one path leads to combat and one path leads to a trap with a secret way out. The players are flying blind.

Also, I'm only talking right now about trip from Area 3 to Area 10. My impression is that the Tomb gets much more linear once the players get to the Chapel. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

 

[Bullgrit]

Not arguing linearity...

I wonder if the Players playing through this module would even know that they took one of three ways from the first to the second great hall? From their point of view, they could well just think they took the only path. Sort of like the old saying, "If you did it and survived, then you did it right." (Those who took the Great Green Devil route did it wrong.)

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

Not arguing linearity...

I wonder if the Players playing through this module would even know that they took one of three ways from the first to the second great hall? From their point of view, they could well just think they took the only path. Sort of like the old saying, "If you did it and survived, then you did it right." (Those who took the Great Green Devil route did it wrong.)

Bullgrit

I think this is definitely possible, particularly for parties that figure out Area 5 and move straight to Area 10.

 

[shmoo2]

Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)

This is a graphical representation of the TOH map - after room 10 it's pretty much a monorail ride to demilich, or death.

I agree with Stoat that the initial part of the dungeon is non-linear, since there are multiple ways to reach room 10, and it matters which path is taken.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's been a long time since I've really looked at this module, but one thing that came to me as I've read this thread is that I probably would re-write the opening riddle that you get from discerning the corridor path to make it more useful, but also add in more puzzles / word games within the riddle itself for the players to suss out.

So for instance... having read what you guys posted about the room with the the 'spheres'... the riddle is written in such a way that a clever wordplay could be created out of it, and could make for an interesting change in solving the puzzle:

If shades of red stand for blood the wise
will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
magical metal -- you're well along your march.

So in these lines, you've got the mention of 'red'... and the loop of magical metal is a 'ring'. Now if you were to edit the puzzle a bit and add in a reference to a woman, you can create a section something like this:

As shades of red stand for blood the wise woman
will not sacrifice her loop of magical metal.
You're well amidst the arch.

The line is telling you (theoretically) that red is blood (deadly), a wise person will not sacrifice a ring of metal, and that you're okay in the middle of the arch (which I believe there's an arch in the Chapel too, right? The one that changes you're gender?). However, buried within this are the three clues of 'red', 'her', and 'ring' (red herring). Thus, the riddle is actually telling you that what it's saying isn't actually correct, and thus you might be better off doing the exact opposite of what it says (sacrificing the ring rather than walking the arch).

This isn't the greatest puzzle in the world, but I mainly came up with it just while reading the thread and hearing the complaints about how it isn't as clear as it probably should be. If I was to run the module I'd edit things a lot better... but it at least is more along the lines of what I'd like to see hidden and able to be deduced within the puzzle to solve the tomb.

 

[Bullgrit]

Good stuff schmoo2! (Can't give you more xp.)

I love this thread.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

We've seen many references to saving throws in ToH, and some posters have described them as easy (for level 10-14 characters). I thought I'd take a look at the numbers.

The saving throw categories are:
1- Paralyzation, Poison, Death Magic
2 - Petrification, Polymorph
3 - Rod, Staff, Wand
4 - Breath Weapon
5 - Spells

(What category does "save vs. magic" fall under?)

Clerics:
Level 10 = 6, 9, 10, 12, 11
Level 14 = 5, 8, 9, 11, 10

Fighters:
Level 10 = 8, 9, 10, 9, 11
Level 14 = 5, 6, 7, 5, 8

Magic-Users:
Level 10 = 13, 11, 9, 13, 10
Level 14 = 11, 9, 7, 11, 8

Thieves:
Level 10 = 11, 10, 10, 14, 11
Level 14 = 10, 9, 8, 13, 9

Although many of them are 50% or better, I definitely would not call these easy or dismissible. A 14th-level thief has a 50/50 chance to survive poison. Saving versus all those traps shooting darts and spears is virtually 50/50 for all the classes.

Bullgrit

 

[grodog]

This is a graphical representation of the TOH map - after room 10 it's pretty much a monorail ride to demilich, or death.

I agree with Stoat that the initial part of the dungeon is non-linear, since there are multiple ways to reach room 10, and it matters which path is taken.

Hmmm. I'll work up a flow using [MENTION=1713]Melan[/MENTION] 's flowchart method to compare: my sense is that even the later areas of the tomb offer more non-linearity/choices that they appear to in your analysis---I'm thinking specifically here of the available exploration options via the corridors (and teleporters) vs. mapping just the flow of encounters themselves. In the end, the paths may still be more linear than I think they are, but I think it's worth looking at.

(What category does "save vs. magic" fall under?)

I've always treated it as a save vs. Spells, FWIW.

 

[pemerton]

But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.

Nevertheless, I agree that thieves in particular have sucky saves, and MUs as well in some categories.