WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[grodog]

But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.

And Dex in many cases.

 

[Stoat]

The saving throw situation may be even worse than it appears from Bullgrit's charts. Many of the pregens are multi-classed and have levels lower than 10. For example, there are 5 pregen thieves: An 11th level Halfing; A Dwarf Fighter 7/Thief 8; An Elf M-U 7/Thief 9; A Half-Elf Fighter 5/Thief 6; and a Halfling Fighter 4/Thief 5. On the other hand, all but the Elf start play with either a Cloak or Ring of Protection. In fact, the Dwarf has a Cloak+3 and an 18 Con (which gives him a +5 to saves against Magic and Poison).

This talk about saving throws raises a question that's been kicking around in the back of my mind: Why take a thief into the Tomb of Horrors?

For the most part, the traps in the Tomb are not the type that the thief will be able to find mechanically. As far as I know, the 1E thief has no particular ability to find secret doors. There is no real need for stealth in the Tomb. I'm not sure there are even any locks to pick.

What there are are a ton of traps that force saving throws, a handful of mostly optional combats, and a bunch of places where the PC's take a few dice of random damage. I'm inclined to think that a clever fighter, with his good saves, hit points and AC, will make a better contribution to the team than a thief.

 

[Stoat]

Area 13. Chamber of Three Chests

Area 13 is a square chamber thirty feet to a side. PC's can reach this place by two routes, both secret. First, a "secret plug" in the ceiling of the crawlspace leading out of Area 7 opens into the floor here. Second, the crawlspace behind the red sphere in Area 10 dead ends at an "easily discovered" secret door. The module clarifies that "easily discovered" means there's 4 in 6 chance to find it. The floor tilts when this secret door is opened, dumping an unlucky PC to the floor of Area 13 10 feet below.

There are three large chests affixed to the floor. One is gold, the second is silver and the third is oak bound with bronze. They're big: 4 feet by 2 feet by 3 feet. As far as I can tell, they aren't locked.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13a.jpg

Gold Chest: Snakes! Oh my god snakes! 12 large asps slither out of the chest and attack "next round." Each is AC 6 with 9 hit points and attacks as a 3 Hit Die monster. Their bites only do 1 point of damage, "but saves versus their poison are at -2." The module doesn't say what happens if you fail a save, but I'm going to guess death. Here's a picture of the snakes:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13b.jpg

Silver Chest: This chest contains a clear crystal box that holds a Ring of Protection +1. When the crystal box is lifted out of the chest, 8 darts shoot upwards. 1 to 2 PC's are hit with 1 to 4 darts each (no save) for 1d6 points of damage per dart. So screw you for taking Acererak's magic ring. A picture is provided:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13c.jpg

Wood Chest: A giant skeleton (literally, it's the skeleton of a giant) has been crammed into this chest. It wants to hash out a working definition of the term "simulationist." Brutal combat inevitably follows.

The skeleton seems pretty buff. According to the module, "it will always strike first." It carries two scimitars and attacks twice per round for 2-12 dmg a pop. It's AC 2 and attacks as a 10 Hit Die monster. It only has 32 hit points, but only blunt weapons really hurt it. Edged weapons do 1 point of damage a hit. Holy Water does 1-4 points of damage to it. It cannot be turned and "magic does not affect this monster." Here's a picture:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13d.jpg

IMO: I don't see any clues here. The right chest is silver, and I haven's even seen the word "silver" in either of the two clues Acererak gives. Of course, the Gargoyle riddle from Area 8 says, "Look high and low for gold," and the gold chest here is just a box of poison. Looks to me like picking the right chest is a matter of dumb luck. If anybody has any other idea, speak up.

And the combats look pretty wooly. The snakes attack "next round," so arguably the PC's have a free round of attacks on them. They've got an acceptable Thac0 (16), and each bite forces a save. The skeleton is beefy and difficult to hurt. And escape will be tricky. Since both entrances are secret, a party can enter Area 13 one way, and not find the other way out. Plus, the exits are hard to get to. The way back to Area 7 is through a trapdoor that leads to a narrow crawlspace. The way back to Area 10 is up on the wall, 10 feet off the floor. I think a careless or unlucky party might lose a member here. Maybe two.

Finally, why all the pictures? There are four pictures in the module devoted to this room, and this room is an optional encounter that can be bypassed without consequence. Are there clues in the pictures?

 

[Bullgrit]

IMO: I don't see any clues here. The right chest is silver, and I haven's even seen the word "silver" in either of the two clues Acererak gives. Of course, the Gargoyle riddle from Area 8 says, "Look high and low for gold," and the gold chest here is just a box of poison. Looks to me like picking the right chest is a matter of dumb luck. If anybody has any other idea, speak up.

Yeah, everything about this set up suggests there's something to figure out -- a "thinking person's module". But having all the info right in front me as the DM, I don't see anything to figure out. No clue, no logic, no hint, no deduction.

Even choosing the "correct" chest, (the one with the +1 ring), results in getting darts in the face. It seems that the only "thinking" to be done here is coming up with ways of mitigating the trap effects.

When I consider "a thinking person's module" I imagine Sherlock Holmes deduction. But the ToH seems more for bomb squad caution. It's not be smart enough to discover and interpret clues properly to avoid traps, it's use enough protection and methods to survive the traps you *will* to set off.

Bullgrit

 

[grodog]

This talk about saving throws raises a question that's been kicking around in the back of my mind: Why take a thief into the Tomb of Horrors?

For the most part, the traps in the Tomb are not the type that the thief will be able to find mechanically. As far as I know, the 1E thief has no particular ability to find secret doors. There is no real need for stealth in the Tomb. I'm not sure there are even any locks to pick.

I think that ToH is very indicative of how OD&D played in the pre-Thief days (it wasn't introduced widely to D&D until Greyhawk Supplement I was released in 1975---it had been previously published in a midwestern newsletter), and is an excellent example of how critical thinking on the part of players would make the thief class unnecessary---exactly because you didn't need a thief to be able to disarm or otherwise avoid most mechanical traps.

And FWIW, many groups I've played in over the years have house-ruled to allow thieves to use their Find Traps skill to identify secret doors too.

 

[grodog]

When I consider "a thinking person's module" I imagine Sherlock Holmes deduction. But the ToH seems more for bomb squad caution. It's not be smart enough to discover and interpret clues properly to avoid traps, it's use enough protection and methods to survive the traps you *will* to set off.

Another excellent point in favor of the pre-thief style of play: you know you're going to set the traps off, so how can you open the chests (or whatever) in such a way that you mitigate effects (hiding behind the lid as you pop it open may provide cover from the darts, but won't help vs. the skeleton or asps!).

 

[Bullgrit]

I think that ToH is very indicative of how OD&D played in the pre-Thief days ... and is an excellent example of how critical thinking on the part of players would make the thief class unnecessary---exactly because you didn't need a thief to be able to disarm or otherwise avoid most mechanical traps.

OK, I can understand how this module was probably originally designed before thieves were in common use.

But, it is interesting, as Stoat pointed out, that there are 5 thieves in the pre-gen characters list -- that's 25%.

It's also interesting that 13 of the 20 pre-gen characters are actually below level 10 -- the minimum suggested level for the adventure. (This doesn't count multiclass characters of level 9/X.)

And, what is the "critical thinking on the part of the players" that can get the party through this module? Like what/how in this chest room in particular? I'm not seeing/understanding how that concept is exemplified by ToH, unless the "thinking" is merely trap mitigation. And even trap mitigation is impossible for at least some traps, like in the Complex of Secret Doors.

Heck, these chest traps aren't even mechanical. They're seemingly magical. Would a dispel magic "disarm" them?

Bullgrit

 

[FoxWander]

I've been following this thread from the start. Great fun! It inspired me to run my group through the Tomb in honor of Gary's birthday. We used AD&D rules with the player's running the pre-gens from the module. I'll make a separate post to discuss their adventures in the Tomb though, since some questions came up that would just distract from the point of this thread.

What's relevant HERE is a basic concept of old-school D&D that I had to emphasize to my players- characters could do anything. There were no "skills" to imply a limit on what actions they could take. Players describe their character's actions (and the reasoning behind them if necessary) and the DM would judge, based on the circumstances and their description, what happened. I think this is the key to getting through the Tomb.
As written, ANY character can survive the tomb (though it would help if that character were a wizard). It really is a test of PLAYER ability. Theoretically, a properly cautious player could get thru with little more than a 10' pole and some rope. The traps don't need "thief skills" to find or solve- poking literally everything with the pole repeatedly, or some overly-paranoid player description, will suffice.

The chamber of three chest, for instance, could be "solved" by listening to the chests (after stabbing them with a dagger tied to your 10' pole to check for mimics ). No doubt one would hear the snakes in their chest and nothing in the others. This might lead one to then try Clairvoyance on the other chests- finding the wooden one empty (the skeleton is teleported into it when opened) and the silver one holding the crystal box and ring. Being rightly paranoid of traps by this point, removing this box by some indirect means- a rope from across the room or via an Unseen Servant (as I said, it's good to be a wizard) is a reasonable precaution and would avoid the darts and net you the magic ring needed to "solve" the chapel.

 

[Bullgrit]

It inspired me to run my group through the Tomb in honor of Gary's birthday. We used AD&D rules with the player's running the pre-gens from the module. I'll make a separate post to discuss their adventures in the Tomb

Cool. I'll be interested in reading it.

What's relevant HERE is a basic concept of old-school D&D that I had to emphasize to my players- characters could do anything. There were no "skills" to imply a limit on what actions they could take. Players describe their character's actions (and the reasoning behind them if necessary) and the DM would judge, based on the circumstances and their description, what happened. I think this is the key to getting through the Tomb.

I think everyone in this thread is aware of this concept. I think all of us involved here are experienced "old school" D&Ders. Though I don't see how this is "the key to getting through the Tomb." -- it's just the standard mode of play for classic D&D.

As written, ANY character can survive the tomb (though it would help if that character were a wizard). It really is a test of PLAYER ability. Theoretically, a properly cautious player could get thru with little more than a 10' pole and some rope. The traps don't need "thief skills" to find or solve- poking literally everything with the pole repeatedly, or some overly-paranoid player description, will suffice.

Well, first, no one has said or suggested that thief skills are needed. In fact, it has been suggested that thief skills are pretty useless here. The other part of your point in this paragraph is the reason for this discussion. Don't just say it, show it.

The chamber of three chest, for instance, could be "solved" by listening to the chests (after stabbing them with a dagger tied to your 10' pole to check for mimics ). No doubt one would hear the snakes in their chest and nothing in the others. This might lead one to then try Clairvoyance on the other chests- finding the wooden one empty (the skeleton is teleported into it when opened) and the silver one holding the crystal box and ring. Being rightly paranoid of traps by this point, removing this box by some indirect means- a rope from across the room or via an Unseen Servant (as I said, it's good to be a wizard) is a reasonable precaution and would avoid the darts and net you the magic ring needed to "solve" the chapel.

Listening to the chests? Well, that's unique and clever. I don't think I've ever seen that done. Is listening to chests a normal routine in other people's games? But are the snakes alive in the chest? How long have they been there? (I always figured they were in some way magicked in like the skeleton. Though I guess the magic could be in preserving the live snakes, rather than teleporting them in.)

Clairvoyance on the chests is an interesting idea, but how can you see inside a closed chest?

Bullgrit

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

On my flight back from Gencon, I was in the same row as Luke Gygax. He was aisle, I was window and between us was the guy who runs the table top gaming section of PAX. While most of the flight had them talking about running conventions, I did manage to ask Luke about the Tomb and the poem. What I got wasn't very much but it was kind of interesting. He said Robilar found all of the pits by using his orc lackeys in place of sheep and the poem was as much a trap as it was a clue with all the word plays and homonyms it contained.