WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[FoxWander]

Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.

It's because "spells" was the catch-all category for saving throws. Anything that wasn't specifically covered by other save categories (paralyzation/poison/death magic, rod/staff/wand, etc.) defaulted to "spells".

2E actually gave saving throws a little more leeway in what they covered (for instance, the exploding alter might have been rod/staff/wand since that one also covered "situations in which a character faces a magical attack from an unusual source.") But 1E didn't have that (I could've sworn it did, but I couldn't find it)- and since saves were the only way of "avoiding stuff" in 1E, a lot of things defaulted to spells.

 

[Bullgrit]

It's because "spells" was the catch-all category for saving throws. Anything that wasn't specifically covered by other save categories (paralyzation/poison/death magic, rod/staff/wand, etc.) defaulted to "spells".

Why not have the traps make a to hit roll against the victim's AC (as surprised, sans Dex and shield)? That makes more sense.

But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.

I just looked these up:

Best save bonus from a ring = +3
Best save bonus from a cloak = +5
I don't see any magic armor in the DMG that grants a bonus to saves.

And just to have some kind of comparison or yardstick, I looked through my treasure data on some of the classic AD&D1 modules to see what level of these items a 9-14th level party might have.

Using that as a base assumption, a PC could have a +1, a +2, up to a +3 ring. But there are no cloaks of protection in that series (T1-4, GDQ1-8). So if the PCs going through the ToH had previously gone through that path, at least some of the PCs could have +3 on their saves. But no better.

Bullgrit

 

[vic20]

Why not have the traps make a to hit roll against the victim's AC (as surprised, sans Dex and shield)? That makes more sense.

The point of this thread isn't about what Gary should have done. It's about how to survive the module as it is written.

I'm interested in this: What does it take to survive the ToH?

 

[Hussar]

Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.

Presuming that Save Vs Spells=Save Vs Magic, IMO, it's because that is everyone's worst saving throw category and the module is just jacking up the DC's for the saving throws.

 

[Stoat]

The point of this thread isn't about what Gary should have done. It's about how to survive the module as it is written.

Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit. Why don't some of these traps attack AC? Is it simply an artifact of the module's age? Or does it mean that these traps are magic, and not mundane? Does Detect Magic reveal them? Does Dispel Magic help disarm them?

 

[vic20]

Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit. Why don't some of these traps attack AC? Is it simply an artifact of the module's age? Or does it mean that these traps are magic, and not mundane? Does Detect Magic reveal them? Does Dispel Magic help disarm them?

Well there you are then. Please forgive my derailing attempt to prevent a derailing.

To the question: I'm not familiar with the spells of the time. Was this problem (uncertainty of how detection magic worked with the traps) part and parcel of DM fiat at the time, or was this module written in a particularly obtuse way that stands out?

 

[pemerton]

I don't see any magic armor in the DMG that grants a bonus to saves.

It's not in the item descriptions. It's in the saving throw rules in the DMG. The + bonus of magic armour adds to saves vs fire, lightning (but not if metal armour), acid, and subtracts 1 per die of falling damage.

Presuming that Save Vs Spells=Save Vs Magic, IMO, it's because that is everyone's worst saving throw category and the module is just jacking up the DC's for the saving throws.

This isn't right. For many classes Dragon Breath is the worst category. For magic-users I think this is generally a good category.

Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit. Why don't some of these traps attack AC? Is it simply an artifact of the module's age?

Yes. I can't think of a trap from those days that attacked AC. I remember when I first started playing RM around 1990 and noticing that it had traps that acted like ordinary attacks rather than like AD&D fireballs etc (auto damage, save for half/none).

 

[Bullgrit]

It's not in the item descriptions. It's in the saving throw rules in the DMG. The + bonus of magic armour adds to saves vs fire, lightning (but not if metal armour), acid, and subtracts 1 per die of falling damage.

*facepalm* God, the AD&D1 DMG is an organizational mess.

I'll have to look that up when I get home.

Edit: Just found this info in the DMG. The saving throw chart is on page 79, the info on magical armor and saving throws is at the end of the second column of page 81. I played AD&D1 for about 15 years, and now, 15 years later, I'm still learning of rules I never knew about.

Bullgrit

 

[Gentlegamer]

*facepalm* God, the AD&D1 DMG is an organizational mess.

"When a book and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is it always from the book?"
Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

 

[grodog]

Edit: Just found this info in the DMG. The saving throw chart is on page 79, the info on magical armor and saving throws is at the end of the second column of page 81. I played AD&D1 for about 15 years, and now, 15 years later, I'm still learning of rules I never knew about.

Yeah, and there's another kicker in that page: how exactly are saves vs. falling damage supposed to work? (We did some fairly detailed discussion about falling damage over on K&K awhile ago, if you're curious).