WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Even choosing the "correct" chest, (the one with the +1 ring), results in getting darts in the face. It seems that the only "thinking" to be done here is coming up with ways of mitigating the trap effects.
What do you mean 'even'? That's the one chest that should have a trap on it. It's the one with the valuable thingy inside. And that's the expectation the players and the characters should have too. You don't ever expect a chest in a dungeon to not be trapped.
 

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Stoat

Adventurer
The weird/interesting thing is that the chest with the treasure in it has the least dangerous trap. The worst case scenario is that two PC's take 4d6 points of damage -- an average of 14 hit points. The monsters summoned by the other chests seem to present a greater risk than that.
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
You don't ever expect a chest in a dungeon to not be trapped.
Really? I think that sums up what I HATE HATE HATE about classic adventure design: Players are turned into paranoid wrecks and gameplay turns into a crawl as they thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across.

It's the very anti-thesis of fun and of my idea of how adventurers should behave. Being careful is fine, but there's a point at which it's just too much. All it does is cause the players to develop an 'investigation routine' that takes care of every 'trap-scenario' they already encountered.

And THAT leads to a situation where the DM basically decides if the trap is triggered or not by deciding if it uses a trigger that is covered by the (well-known) 'investigation routine' or not. It's a stupid arms race against a DM that gets his kicks from screwing the players and cannot every be won by the players. yuck!

It doesn't even make sense: Why should someone take the effort to trap every single chest in a dungeon? That's utterly crazy! Traps are already a pretty inefficient (and often prohibitively expensive) method to 'secure' whatever is stored in a chest. Trapping every single chest is worse because it guarantees, that it won't surprise anyone.

Disclaimer: Yeah, I know that there are people who feel that this is not only fun but also exactly how D&D should be played but my preferences are quite different.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
He said Robilar found all of the pits by using his orc lackeys in place of sheep and the poem was as much a trap as it was a clue with all the word plays and homonyms it contained.

I had a thought around the poem. The poem acts more as a prophecy than a clue. And all good prophecies make little sense until the events actually come to pass, and even then there are questions as to was that really the event the prophecy was referring.

So every time you get further into the Tomb, players get to look back and say "see, I was right about that line!" or "I guess that is not what 'nights good color' meant." Those that get to the end can "see" much of their path in the poem, even if the poem provided very little help along the way.

That may be one of the key allures of this module - trying to divine what the poem means and map your position in the Tomb to the lines. Its has the same draw as people trying to map historical events to Nostradamus' predictions. For example, here is one trying to tie his words to 9/11 - it reads much like this thread and much like discussions around the table that I remember.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Really? I think that sums up what I HATE HATE HATE about classic adventure design: Players are turned into paranoid wrecks and gameplay turns into a crawl as they thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across.

It's the very anti-thesis of fun and of my idea of how adventurers should behave. Being careful is fine, but there's a point at which it's just too much. All it does is cause the players to develop an 'investigation routine' that takes care of every 'trap-scenario' they already encountered.

And THAT leads to a situation where the DM basically decides if the trap is triggered or not by deciding if it uses a trigger that is covered by the (well-known) 'investigation routine' or not. It's a stupid arms race against a DM that gets his kicks from screwing the players and cannot every be won by the players. yuck!

It doesn't even make sense: Why should someone take the effort to trap every single chest in a dungeon? That's utterly crazy! Traps are already a pretty inefficient (and often prohibitively expensive) method to 'secure' whatever is stored in a chest. Trapping every single chest is worse because it guarantees, that it won't surprise anyone.

Disclaimer: Yeah, I know that there are people who feel that this is not only fun but also exactly how D&D should be played but my preferences are quite different.
You got all that from my comment about a chest in a dungeon? Seriously? The anti-thesis of fun? Who stole your fun and put it in a trapped chest? Sheesh. That's a lot of comments about things I never said.

And I especially never said anything about trapping every chest. I was talking about expectations.

Consider this for a moment. You're in a dungeon. You come across a chest. Why is it there? Why would anyone leave a chest there? You wouldn't suspect anything? You'd just happily saunter over and open it without a second thought?
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across
happily saunter over and open it without a second thought
Folks, changing someone's position to hyperbole does not help a discussion. Can we avoid this kind of thing so the discussion can stay cool? I bet your positions on the subject are actually not as far apart as you are each representing the other's.

Bullgrit
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
I remember this one time when there was a fork in a dungeon and the paladin ran straight into the other, tripped a pressure plate, and the ceiling fell on him. After we'd dug him up and the cleric had healed him we checked the other passage and found no traps. So we decided unanimously to take the trapped passage. A) One less trap to worry about. B) There must be something important that way. I don't remember if we were right, though. :p
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Consider this for a moment. You're in a dungeon. You come across a chest. Why is it there? Why would anyone leave a chest there? You wouldn't suspect anything? You'd just happily saunter over and open it without a second thought?
I'd expect the surroundings to give me clues about the purpose of the chest:

Situation 1: An otherwise empty room with a chest placed in the exact centre?
I'd expect it to be some kind of death trap and carefully close the door again without making a single step into the room.

Situation 2: A room filled with all kinds of junk, among them several containers and a chest?
I'd happily saunter over and open it without a second thought.

I'd like to note that my behaviour in situation 1 is guided by my experience with classic adventure modules:
When looking at a room, the first thing I'd try to figure out: What's its purpose?
The room in situation 1 doesn't serve any recognizable purpose, hence it's suspicious.

But my question to adventure designers (or dungeon builders) everywhere would be:
Why should anyone create such a room in the first place?

IIRC, Tomb of Horrors doesn't feature a lot of rooms that serve a recognizable purpose - everything is suspicious! That's one of many reasons why I don't like the module.
 

Stoat

Adventurer
Area 14. Chapel of Evil

Just getting to Area 14 is a challenge. The PC's must pass through the illusory black sphere in Area 10 and crawl along a narrow tunnel for about 200 feet. The end of the tunnel is solid stone. There is, of course, a secret passage here. There's a 1 in 6 chance that the PC's find the door, elves get no special bonus to this roll, "and no form of magic will detect it, save the gem of seeing." Why won't regular old True Seeing work? Because Acererak is a bastard, that's why.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic14.jpg

Area 14 itself is a large temple 70 feet square. The walls are painted with scenes of normal life, except that the people depicted are rotting, worm-eaten corpses. Creepy. Also depicted are religious symbols of good alignment, and a faint aura of good can be detected. Maybe Acererak isn't such a bad guy after all!

A wooden railing running from east to west divides the room in two parts. The north part, which is 50 feet long, is for common worshipers. Four rows of heavy pews occupy this area. A mosaic path runs down the aisle between the pews toward the altar.

The pews have hinged seats. The first three rows of pews contain treasure: 4,000 silver pieces, 6,000 electrum pieces, and 4,000 gold pieces. There must be something great in the pews on the first first row! No. They're trapped and they spew poison gas into the room. Everybody lose 2d4 points of strength -- no save -- for 48 hours.

The altar area is behind the wooden railing. The altar itself is a block of opalescent blue stone that glows with an inner light. Behind the altar is a padded, nicely carved wooden chair. Two brass candelabra flank the chair, each holds five white candles. In each of the back corners is a white pottery urn, stoppered with a brass and wooden plug.

There's another misty archway in the southwest corner of the room. A skeleton dressed in rusty black chain mail is stretched out on the ground pointing to it.

The altar has a faint aura of evil. If any living matter touches it, a lighting bolt shoots up the aisle doing 40 hits points of damage, save vs. magic for half. After that, the altar turns a "fiery blue-red." If you touch it after that, it blows up, doing 60 hit points of damage to everything within 30 feet (save vs. spells for half).

The arch looks a lot like Area 5. Take another look at the picture.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic5.jpg

None of the stones in the archway glow when the PC's approach. However, the "entranceway" is filled with luminous orange vapors of an exciting hue. It's a trap. Anybody that passes through has their sex and alignment reversed. So many lawful evil women. Re-entering the arch restores alignment but does 1d6 points of damage. Going through the arch a third time reverses the PC's sex again and teleports the PC naked back to Area 3 just like the arch in Area 10. Otherwise, Wish or Altar Reality will fix everything. Other-otherwise, a PC who has fixed their alignment can fix their sex with Remove Curse.

Finally, there's a tiny slot in the southeast corner of the chapel with the letter O faintly traced above it. This is the way out.

IMO: There's a lot going on in the Chapel, but I'm not impressed by much of it. This doesn't look to me like a room full of clues and puzzles. It's just some traps and the only way to find the way out is to look real hard. Also, as far as I can tell, Acererak's riddle just skips this area.

The pew trap is obnoxious, but since the PC's can stop and rest anytime it won't really hurt them. Of course, they don't know that.

The Archway is mean (so many lawful evil women) but not lethal. What happens to a typical PC when their alignment is magically reversed anyway? The module specifically says that Paladins and Rangers will be OK if they can get their old alignments back. I don't see a whole lot of clues to the nature of the archway, either. There's a skeleton pointing to it, and the module explicitly says, "The skeleton of course, misleads the party."

There's another mosaic path here, but no clue. Bummer.

Finally, the text for this room is particularly disorganized. The secret door leading here, the creepy walls, the pews, the mosaic path, the treasure, and the altar area are all described in one long paragraph. The pew trap is described in a parenthetical in the middle of this paragraph. The paragraph detailing the Arch is a little hard to follow as well. If I missed anything, let me know.
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
Stoat said:
Finally, the text for this room is particularly disorganized. The secret door leading here, the creepy walls, the pews, the mosaic path, the treasure, and the altar area are all described in one long paragraph.
As I was reading your post, my first thought was about how succinctly and clearly you described this room better than the original text. Really, as said earlier, this whole module needs a good editor. Gygax's stream-of-consciousness writing in long walls of text style really hinders a DM running this module. And this module, of all he wrote, most needs its information presented clearly for a DM to properly handle the PCs interacting with the environment.

An interesting thing: there is only a 1 in 6 chance per PC that they can even find the secret door to let them into this room. So unless they sacrificed the 10 gems to the three-armed statue earlier, there is a distinct chance that the party could be stopped before entering this room merely because no one rolled a 1 on d6. But then I don't know of any DM who would be so unfun as to allow the party to not find the secret door and continue the adventure.

But then why have the secret door with restricted chance to find at all? I mean, the group had to go through the illusion entrance to even get to this deadend, so why add a random chance to move through? This kind of thing just doesn't make sense to me at all.

If you touch it after that, it blows up, doing 60 hit points of damage to everything within 30 feet (save vs. spells for half).
Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.

Finally, there's a tiny slot in the southeast corner of the chapel with the letter O faintly traced above it. This is the way out.
So this room can have a bunch of Lawful Evil women looking for the O? . . . Is this interesting or terrifying?

Bullgrit
 

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