grodog
Hero
But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.
And Dex in many cases.
But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.
Yeah, everything about this set up suggests there's something to figure out -- a "thinking person's module". But having all the info right in front me as the DM, I don't see anything to figure out. No clue, no logic, no hint, no deduction.Stoat said:IMO: I don't see any clues here. The right chest is silver, and I haven's even seen the word "silver" in either of the two clues Acererak gives. Of course, the Gargoyle riddle from Area 8 says, "Look high and low for gold," and the gold chest here is just a box of poison. Looks to me like picking the right chest is a matter of dumb luck. If anybody has any other idea, speak up.
This talk about saving throws raises a question that's been kicking around in the back of my mind: Why take a thief into the Tomb of Horrors?
For the most part, the traps in the Tomb are not the type that the thief will be able to find mechanically. As far as I know, the 1E thief has no particular ability to find secret doors. There is no real need for stealth in the Tomb. I'm not sure there are even any locks to pick.
When I consider "a thinking person's module" I imagine Sherlock Holmes deduction. But the ToH seems more for bomb squad caution. It's not be smart enough to discover and interpret clues properly to avoid traps, it's use enough protection and methods to survive the traps you *will* to set off.
OK, I can understand how this module was probably originally designed before thieves were in common use.grodog said:I think that ToH is very indicative of how OD&D played in the pre-Thief days ... and is an excellent example of how critical thinking on the part of players would make the thief class unnecessary---exactly because you didn't need a thief to be able to disarm or otherwise avoid most mechanical traps.
Cool. I'll be interested in reading it.FoxWander said:It inspired me to run my group through the Tomb in honor of Gary's birthday. We used AD&D rules with the player's running the pre-gens from the module. I'll make a separate post to discuss their adventures in the Tomb
I think everyone in this thread is aware of this concept. I think all of us involved here are experienced "old school" D&Ders. Though I don't see how this is "the key to getting through the Tomb." -- it's just the standard mode of play for classic D&D.What's relevant HERE is a basic concept of old-school D&D that I had to emphasize to my players- characters could do anything. There were no "skills" to imply a limit on what actions they could take. Players describe their character's actions (and the reasoning behind them if necessary) and the DM would judge, based on the circumstances and their description, what happened. I think this is the key to getting through the Tomb.
Well, first, no one has said or suggested that thief skills are needed. In fact, it has been suggested that thief skills are pretty useless here. The other part of your point in this paragraph is the reason for this discussion. Don't just say it, show it.As written, ANY character can survive the tomb (though it would help if that character were a wizard). It really is a test of PLAYER ability. Theoretically, a properly cautious player could get thru with little more than a 10' pole and some rope. The traps don't need "thief skills" to find or solve- poking literally everything with the pole repeatedly, or some overly-paranoid player description, will suffice.
Listening to the chests? Well, that's unique and clever. I don't think I've ever seen that done. Is listening to chests a normal routine in other people's games? But are the snakes alive in the chest? How long have they been there? (I always figured they were in some way magicked in like the skeleton. Though I guess the magic could be in preserving the live snakes, rather than teleporting them in.)The chamber of three chest, for instance, could be "solved" by listening to the chests (after stabbing them with a dagger tied to your 10' pole to check for mimics ). No doubt one would hear the snakes in their chest and nothing in the others. This might lead one to then try Clairvoyance on the other chests- finding the wooden one empty (the skeleton is teleported into it when opened) and the silver one holding the crystal box and ring. Being rightly paranoid of traps by this point, removing this box by some indirect means- a rope from across the room or via an Unseen Servant (as I said, it's good to be a wizard) is a reasonable precaution and would avoid the darts and net you the magic ring needed to "solve" the chapel.