dmg 97
WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]
dmg 97
Bullgrit
Adventurer
More complicated than that: the riddle is not hidden in a single spot on the floor. The Player has to have been examining the entirety of the path from the dungeon entrance to the end of that hall. They don't get to spot the riddle if they just search the "B" area; it's only if they have been searching from the entrance to the "B" area that the DM is to reveal this clue.
If a Player says he's examining the path and gets nothing for the search along the first 10 feet, 20 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet!, etc. and gives up, they get no clue. How many times does a DM say, "You don't notice anything special about the path," before a Player gives up? The Player has no reason to think there is a clue hidden in that particular decoration. Maybe the DM says, "You don't notice anything special about the path, yet"?
This is a situation where arguably ridiculous, blind, unencouraged persistence pays off. Of the Players who stuck with their examination this long, how many continued to search the rest of the Tomb with this much persistence? How long did the adventure take? Are there still adventurers inside the tomb examining every inch of the interior looking for another hidden clue? Why wouldn't the Players think more clues could be found by just sticking to a search long enough?
Bullgrit
As is often the case, a lot is left up to the DM.
The module says that the players have to examine the "pattern" on the floor from the entrance to point B. Simply examining the "path" may or may not be enough. On the other hand, it might not be necessary for the players to specify that they want to examine the path separate from the entire floor.
I'm not much of an RBDM. If the PC's were searching the floor for traps as they went along, I'd give them the riddle if they made it to the end of the hall.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
And that can cause a problem with a scenario that is specifically to test/challenge/put in their place the Players. How many Players failed this adventure because of the DM? How many succeeded because of the DM?
There was a write up of one group's delving into the Tomb over on Dragonsfoot(?). The DM allowed, (by decision or oversight), the party to use the gem of seeing an unlimited number of times, (vice the 12 times allowed in the text). That is a major benefit for overcoming the Tomb.
A party whose DM allows unlimited use of the gem of seeing has a *much* better chance than a party whose DM was too harsh/slack/confused/restricting to even let them find the gem at all.
Bullgrit
Raven Crowking
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grodog
Hero
Some general reactions to the ToH discussions to date:
Lastly, "The Tombs of Horrors" was an excellent blog that started at the end of last year, and then alas died, examining the module in detail (up through the first third or so IIRC). The blog posts are now gone from Google cache, and from the Internet Archive. Since some excellent insights were offered by the blogger, and I'm sure they'd be of interest to the thread, I'll see if I can find the files (which I saved) to repost them.
- many folks seem to be approaching the ToH through the lens of physical exploration vs. using divination and scouting magics: augury, find the path, locate object, divination, find traps, clairvoyance, and wizard eye (among many others) would likely be assumed to be in full-force after at least one or two disastrous initial forays into the false entrances and the initial tomb corridor (assuming that they didn't result in TPKs, of course); demi-human trap/stone detections are also useful here, though probably less reliable
- divination magics like those above, as well as the biggies like legend lore, commune, bardic lore, sage consultation, and such, should be de rigueur for high-level PCs planning to run around in some hideous deathtrap: how else did such PCs reach high levels in the first place, if they weren't consummate planners and diviners, exercising caution and learning as much about their adventuring environs before ever getting there, as well as while on site?
- PC parties were much larger BITD---look at the number of pregens offered---and were assumed to include henchmen and hirelings, in addition to possible summon/conjured monsters (per Stuart's early observations); so, if two or three hirelings or lower-level PCs fall into pits with save or die poison spikes, then you regroup by dragging the bodies back out (to raise or animate as necessary, again following Stuart's lead), stock up on neutralize poison and slow poison, and then proceed more cautiously; larger parties were also more versatile, and more resilient (in the sense of bench depth---if you have 4 clerics in a 14 PC party, then if one gets disintegrated, it's not likely a major catastrophe....)
- if the players and their PCs never learn from their mistakes---as with my pits example above---then no amount of diligence is going to allow them to succeed in the module; clever players who can learn from their errors, adapt quickly to rapidly changing conditions, and who may even plan ahead for various contingencies to insure a quick response to "10, 9, 8, etc." conditions, will be much more likely to survive and perhaps prosper in the tomb
Lastly, "The Tombs of Horrors" was an excellent blog that started at the end of last year, and then alas died, examining the module in detail (up through the first third or so IIRC). The blog posts are now gone from Google cache, and from the Internet Archive. Since some excellent insights were offered by the blogger, and I'm sure they'd be of interest to the thread, I'll see if I can find the files (which I saved) to repost them.
When my DM ran it for us, he did a light re-design which included specifically yanking out boxed text so that it would be easy to read descriptions without either (a) skipping something important or (b) accidentally revealing something which shouldn't be revealed:
Justin Alexander - Tomb of Horrors
The only group I know which made it through the tomb successfully did so by casting locate object on their own gear after it was stripped from them by one of the teleports and then using stone shape to tunnel their way to it. (They had already picked up all the keys through cleverness and persistence.)
Most other groups I know of either (a) die quickly or (b) succeed up until they hit the false door in area 23. No group I've ever heard about or run thorugh the tomb has ever detected that the false door is actually a real door, and they end up doubling back through the tomb convinced that they missed something (which results in them triggering all the traps they so diligently avoided previously).
I did the same! Though I really only ran the latter half or so...the first half was soooo time/DM-labor intensive, our usual DM was eventually exhausted and basically said (I'm paraphrasing), "Ok. Who wants to run this?"
I think it took us a good 2 and a half sessions just to get IN! Many MANY deaths later, and retreating, and raising/resurrecting, and numerous loss of items we simply weren't goign to give up...but the DM had had enough.
I do recall quite clearly, when I took over, looking at the module with the former DM to go over "Where we were" and what I, as the new DM, needed to know/keep in mind and thinking, "HOLY SCHIST! That's it?! That's as far as we got in two weeks?!?" hahaha.
Still, for all of the challenges (and deaths) we were determined...this as, afterall the PINNACLE of modules (of the day...and perhaps even now) for our style of play at the time.
In the vein of style of play, all of grodog's suggestions for hig level divination are spot on...unfortunately, back then, when we had 4th or 5th level spells, my group (and I include myself) were more concerned to have the uber-powerful offensive and defensive spells "at the ready" than thinking of using magic for "informative" purposes. (Hey. It was high school and we were deeply into "hack'n'slash" at the time, as I'm sure many of that age bracket were/are
No DOUBT we would have proceeded significantly more quickly if we had gone for the divinations! I think, all told...we had a good month and half worth of sessions to complete it. But WOW were we happy/satisfied when it finished...though I think only a single player was still using their original character! lol. And even he had had to be raised at least once!
But the "this is an unfair character-grinder" was never really a thought. It was just, "GODS was that hard!...but look how rich we are now!!!"
Good times....bloody times...but good.
--SD
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