WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[FoxWander]

I'd say how tough this room is depends on how many characters go in. The text says an animated set will attack the one who crossed the threshold to animate it- so each character will have his/her own set to deal with. Also each piece has to be destroyed individually, starting with the shield.

If the whole party enters the room this could be a tough encounter. All sets would animate at once and the people entering latest (usually the casters) will get the toughest ones.

On the other hand, if only a scout goes in he'll get one set to fight. Someone will probably go in to help and they'll get a set as well. Presumably the party would stop rushing in at this point. If they're smart, the ones in combat will simply back out of the room so the whole party can help without animating any more. The party can fight them one set at a time in this way which should be fairly easy at this level. Then they can be completely disappointed when they explore the room on the far side.

 

[jmucchiello]

It's interesting to note that most of the other secret doors in the Tomb have no description at all on how to open them.

This may be heresy but Mr. Gygax was not the most organized writer. I'm sure if you were sitting in his basement in 1975 playing through the Tomb of Horrors and you said, "I look around. What do I see?" He would tell you several paragraphs worth of details that are not found in the written adventure. The fact that they are not in the written adventure is unfortunate, an over site or just an issue of space.

And I think DMs of the day were fully expecting to have to fill in details like that. It was just part of the job.

 

[Bullgrit]

Area 27. The Portal of Scintillating Violet

Can someone explain what all the various colors for these doors and demon faces are supposed to mean? It seems like they're supposed to mean something, but I'm not seeing what. Some of the colors change with a touch, but why? Are these supposed to be clues? How so, and for what?

If anybody enters the room, two swords and one shield will animate and attack! Worse, every other time the threshold of the room is crossed, another of the eight sets of swords and shields animates! Worse still, each animated set is tougher than the one before. The first set attacks as a 1st level fighter. The eighth as an 8th level fighter.

And here we have more Wall of Text From Hell! The weapon stats are vaguely mentioned in the wall of text, but not actually given in a usable way.

The deeper we go into this publication, the more it's looking to be a DM's worst nightmare. I pity those tournament DMs who had to run this with probably only a few minutes pre-read time.

IMO: Meh. A bunch of animated weapons attack, and each is more powerful than the last. It's not a deathtrap per se, but I guess it could wear down a persistent party. I see no clues or hints, but I don't really see a reason for them, either.

One question. I don't have an intuitive feel for 1E combat. How dangerous are these swords? Will they slaughter a 10th to 14th level party? Challenge it? Get wiped out by it?

This trap also works on victims coming into this room from 27A, (north), after one of the demon mouth portals teleports them there. As I asked earlier, do such victims get stripped of their equipment? My reading of the teleporting suggests yes, but the text for that area/trap is lacking in direct explanation. Naked PCs trying to escape 27A may get mauled by these attacking weapons.

Depending on the DM's interpretation of the teleport trap, these flying weapons can either be, "Yay, we get a relatively easy combat," or "Oh my poor slashed, stabbed, and bleeding naked body!"

And 27 and 27A -- What is with Gygax's numbering of rooms in this Tomb? Why does he label completely separate areas as [number] and [number]A? And some numbers cover multiple areas without even an A or B note.

This Tomb is as much a horror for the DM as for the Players.

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

Can someone explain what all the various colors for these doors and demon faces are supposed to mean? It seems like they're supposed to mean something, but I'm not seeing what. Some of the colors change with a touch, but why? Are these supposed to be clues? How so, and for what?

I wish I knew. Parts of The ToH are full of very evocative color -- electric blue, scintillating violet, glowing citron. We know to "shun green" -- both the GGD and the tapestries in Area 21 are green. Twice, we've seen electric blue lead to trouble (Area 26 and the Altar in the Chapel). But the other colors? I've been looking for a connection, but I don't see one.

Also strange is the fact that although parts of the Tomb are vividly decorated, other parts seem to be empty and featureless. Frex, there are crazy frescoes in Area 3, but the walls in Area 9 aren't described at all.

And here we have more Wall of Text From Hell! The weapon stats are "told" in the wall of text, but not actually given in a usable way.

Yeah, I didn't even try to parse out the stats for the swords. That's probably part of the reason I have trouble guauging how tough this fight would be.

Here's a question. How many times each round does a set of two swords and one shield attack? Does the shield get an attack, or is it just a hit point sink?

 

[Bullgrit]

And I think DMs of the day were fully expecting to have to fill in details like that. It was just part of the job.

This can be acceptable in some adventure modules, but in this module, billed as the ultimate test of Player skill, and used as a crowning tournament experience, leaving so much important information unexplained and open for individual DM invention is a serious, (I'd argue, a fatal), failing.

Bullgrit

 

[Hussar]

To be honest Bullgrit, I'd say it's much more simply a sign of the times. We've had many years and many, MANY modules to get a kinda, sorta standard format for modules. And, in all fairness, we STILL haven't hit one that everyone likes (Delve format I'm looking at you).

Gygax has never been known for his technical skills as a writer. Evocative, interesting? Oh hell yes. Technically proficient? Umm, not so much.

 

[jmucchiello]

And 27 and 27A -- What is with Gygax's numbering of rooms in this Tomb? Why does he label completely separate areas as [number] and [number]A? And some numbers cover multiple areas without even an A or B note.

Again, "translation" is probably at issue here. I would not be surprised if the 1975 map for ToH looked nothing like the published map (designed to fit nicely for printing).

This can be acceptable in some adventure modules, but in this module, billed as the ultimate test of Player skill, and used as a crowning tournament experience, leaving so much important information unexplained and open for individual DM invention is a serious, (I'd argue, a fatal), failing.

Does it actually say this on the module? Anyone have an early printing of the module to see if it bills itself as any form of ultimate test? A quick websearch tells me that other than mentioning was played at Origins, there's nothing advertising the module as the ultimate anything. That is a term that has been applied to afterward as part of its legend.

Devil's Advocate: Of course being written as it is, it is the ultimate test of DM skill as well.

 

[Bullgrit]

Does it actually say this on the module? Anyone have an early printing of the module to see if it bills itself as any form of ultimate test? A quick websearch tells me that other than mentioning was played at Origins, there's nothing advertising the module as the ultimate anything. That is a term that has been applied to afterward as part of its legend.

Most of the “ultimate test” concept comes from fan description, (sometimes years post), building its legend.

From the module itself:

“THIS IS A THINKING PERSON’S MODULE…” [All caps emphasis in the text.]

“It is this writer’s belief that brainwork is good for all players, and they will certainly benefit from playing this module, for individual levels of skill will be improved by reasoning and experience.” [Not only will this adventure test player skill, but it will improve that skill.]

Plus there are several references/mentions to player skill throughout the various trick and trap areas of the Tomb. Without quoting each one, most are basically along the lines of “skilled players will succeed.” So without directly stating exactly in the module text, the feel/style is set up as some kind of test of Player skill.

* * *

Reading the intro to the module again made me think of something from the first page of this thread:

What clues are there to tell the party that there are, in fact, multiple entrances, rather than just fiendishly hard-to-open doors?

One tidbit is metagame genre knowledge. Typical module design of the time didn’t actually expect folks to engage in mining activities – if it was designed so a trap closed off one route, then another route usually existed.

Rereading the module intro, it made me laugh to see that, actually, the PCs have to prod and dig, (effort given in man turns), just to open a way into the entrance hall. And then there’s also the concealed door that can only be found after digging away the plaster of the hallway.

Within the first, what, 4 areas of the Tomb, the party has the need to dig/mine. I wonder how much this influenced the delvers when considering how to get past further obstacles?

Bullgrit

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

IMO: Meh. A bunch of animated weapons attack, and each is more powerful than the last. It's not a deathtrap per se, but I guess it could wear down a persistent party. I see no clues or hints, but I don't really see a reason for them, either.

I don't think it's meant as a huge threat from the pillared hall side. It's more meant as a death trap for people who get teleported (probably naked, as Bullgrit discusses) to room 27A (the "Chamber of Hopelessness"!). If the door on that side is opened, "all of the swords and shields swoop from the walls to attack". That is quite possibly lethal to a single unarmed PC attacked by all eight sets at once. I don't think it's a really good deathtrap even there, since the rest of the party can eventually destroy all of the sets (assuming the trapped PC can somehow communicate his or her situation to the rest of the group, and that the players don't cheat and mingle player/PC knowledge).

 

[Joshua Randall]

Within the first, what, 4 areas of the Tomb, the party has the need to dig/mine. I wonder how much this influenced the delvers when considering how to get past further obstacles?

It does set the precedent that you need to approach the Tomb less as a typical dungeon romp and more as a particularly dangerous bomb-site disposal effort.

As we've discussed before, one way to succeed at the Tomb is to take it super slowly and super carefully. Never touch anything yourself. Use magic or slaves to tear it apart brick by brick, so you find all those doors hidden behind plaster or keys in vats of acid.

Along that line of thinking, how would it work if the PCs stood outside the Tomb and saturation bombed it with earthquake spells or any of the various AD&D magic items that facilitate digging or excavation? Throw in a decanter of endless water and you could wreak serious havok by pressure-washing and flooding. Summon a bunch of earth elementals or xorn. Use passwall to weaken the structure of the Tomb so that it collapses.

Better yet, scout the place out with scrying, then passwall directly into the demilich's chamber.

All would depend upon DM rulings, of course. But there is actually nothing to be gained by setting foot in the Tomb if you don't have to. (Nothing other that GP/XP; if you just want to "win", your goal is the demilich's treasure horde, period.)