Wisdom too powerful?

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think you can distribute different saving throws over the three mental abilities reasonably well. Trying to divide effects by keyword and sub-schools that have existed in the past:

Illusion: Intelligence makes sense, but perception is based on Wisdom, so it ought to follow that. I guess it depends whether you are seeing small flaws in the illusion, or knowing that such illusions can exist. There are a lot of sub-classes of illusion though, I would say some of them are more Wisdom suited (hypnotism and such).

Charm/Compulsion: Charisma seems like the first choice, but perhaps you can differentiate Charm from Domination by having one be Intelligence-based and the other Charisma-based. If you're smart enough to know you've been charmed, you save, but if someone tries to mind-control you it comes down to force of personality.

Fear: A tough choice again, high Wisdom characters are those that would resist fear, but as a force of personality again, Charisma also makes sense.

Well that didn't really help. Maybe deciding what the different abilities mean in defence terms provides more:

Intelligence: Knowledge and lore. Useful against mentally taxing effects such as maze and confusion. Nothing else unique comes to mind.

Wisdom: Putting knowledge into practice. Governs perception, so ought to cover illusions.

Charisma: Force of personality. Makes you difficult to control (domination) and perhaps difficult to frighten (fear) but doesn't help against illusions or other trickery.

There are a suite of spells that used to do damage (will save) type effects. It's not obvious which ability they would hit. Perhaps we need better definitions on the types of magic that exist in D&D? I love the old schools of magic, but they could use better defintion for sure.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Depends on the situation:

If there is a hidden door, you may notice that there are scratches on the floor. And it is a logical conclusion that there must be something behind.
Of course, you have seen a lot, and thus, your experience tells you, that there may be something behind.
I believe, just like climbing, both attributes should work equally well... and why not?

Yeah, deduction should be Intelligence, but it requires you to study the surroundings. Wisdom is when your intuition kicks in and you notice the trap door just before you step on it.

 

[soulcatcher78]

The wise man compliments his wife on her new hair cut.
The smart man, may not notice the haircut, but knows that a wedding is coming up and he should pay a compliment.

For a save vs wifely wrath both can be applied interchangeably. The same goes for a number of checks that you'd like to attempt with your character depending on how you describe them.

i.e. The high int wizard has studied goblins and is familiar with several ways that have been documented that they normally trap their lairs. Therefore he is looking for specific things bassed on his INT score. The high wis cleric is intuitive and knows that there are goblins who would likely use traps and therefore be alert to the fact he should be checking for them.

I think the stregnth of the system is that you are able to make the case at the table (at least until someone makes a clearly defined rule or house rule) when the matter comes up. This is a game about imagination and we should be able to BS our way through a check or two when it comes down to it...just be prepared to back it up with an explanation or I'll let you walk right into that spear trap

 

[Gold Roger]

I think the current setup of DDN is very flexible in the regard of using ability scores. And perception is a good example.

You see, i think perception is an incredible broad area of expertise. Most people are very perceptive in some areas and pretty much oblivious in others.

There are good arguments to use dexterity, intelligence and wisdom for perception rolls. Dexterity means keen eyed, good coordination and focus, good multitasking and reflexes. Wisdom means a good general awareness, concentration and intuition. Intelligence speaks of an analytical mind and the knowledge what to look for.

I'd like to use various combinations of those ability scores.

Likewise, while a perception bonuse speaks of a character that is generally very perceptive, many skills should play into specific perception tests. A character trained in religion exploring a ruined temple knows what to look for and what is out of place and should get the bonus. A character trained in survival spots animals, traps and hazards in the wild more easily. A trained thief is more likely to spot thieves in a crowd. etc.

Perception of the world is incredibly important in tabletop roleplaying and every character should have times to shine in it.

Right now DDN not only doesn't contradict this approach of mine, I feel encouraged to interpret tthe system my way. I like that.

 

[IronWolf]

There is probably flexibility for the DM to allow either for Perception type checks.

With that said, I can certainly see why Wisdom would be the default. Being very smart does not always make one observant. I have seen many very intelligent people miss small details in their surroundings.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I would differentiate Perception checks into 'awareness' and 'examination' checks. Are you aware of something? Test your Wisdom - your intuition, gut feeling, your subconcious. Are you looking for something? Test your Intelligence - your ability to analyse and deduce. Basically it's passive (wis) vs. active (int), which is the easiest way to decide which to use.

 

[IronWolf]

I would differentiate Perception checks into 'awareness' and 'examination' checks. Are you aware of something? Test your Wisdom - your intuition, gut feeling, your subconcious. Are you looking for something? Test your Intelligence - your ability to analyse and deduce. Basically it's passive vs. active, which is the easiest way to decide which to use.

That could be an interesting way to handle it and fairly clean cut as well. I like it.

 

[Kzach]

Think of the most perceptive fictional character you know of and now ask yourself, "Was he wise, or intelligent?"

Personally, I've always associated Sherlock Holmes with being the most perceptive fictional character I can think of and he is renowned as being highly intelligent, but not particularly wise. In fact, his famous companion Watson was the voice of reason in the relationship.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Think of the most perceptive fictional character you know of and now ask yourself, "Was he wise, or intelligent?"

Personally, I've always associated Sherlock Holmes with being the most perceptive fictional character I can think of and he is renowned as being highly intelligent, but not particularly wise. In fact, his famous companion Watson was the voice of reason in the relationship.

Great at deduction, but he's so damned quick at it because he's maxed out his Perception skill and probably has a bunch of feats (or traits).

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Think of the most perceptive fictional character you know of and now ask yourself, "Was he wise, or intelligent?"

Personally, I've always associated Sherlock Holmes with being the most perceptive fictional character I can think of and he is renowned as being highly intelligent, but not particularly wise. In fact, his famous companion Watson was the voice of reason in the relationship.

He's intelligent, but unwise. The trick is, he's *always* looking for clues. Brilliant at making the small details fit together, but probably not the sort of guy the FBI would hire to profile a killer.