Wisdom too powerful?

[howandwhy99]

For me,

INT is a large bulk of memory and knowledge. It doesn't have to be useful knowledge though, but your PC gets to know stuff you wouldn't want to have to learn at the table. For instance, languages, book contents, and the like. It also a sign of high focus and concentration.

WIS is knowing to take the best route to your goal that you know of. You can know many ways to get to Pasadena, but you're not thinking practically on how to get there if you're unwise.

 

[77IM]

I don't think WIS is overpowered, but I do think Int is underpowered. In the core (what we have so far), non-wizards have a lot of situations when Wisdom or Charisma would be useful, but few situations when Int would be useful. "Remember some Lore" is about the only core use of Int. I dunno about you guys, but my games feature more use of influence, perception, and willpower than they do of ancient lore.

I'd bring back a mechanic where high Int gets you bonus skills, or at least bonus languages. That way it is useful to everyone, even if you don't roll it much, like Constitution which grants HP as its primary function.

-- 77IM

 

[satori01]

I just do not believe the Dali Lama or the Pope is going to be better at spoting a trip wire than a Nobel Scientist.

Karl Pilkington > Sherlock Holmes in detecting a lie? Really?

 

[Celestian]

I would really prefer they give thieves specific abilities/talent for search/find/etc instead of using wisdom. Same for rangers and tracking. It just does not make much sense for the majority of thiefly abilities (and rangers).

Give them a find/remove/search/track talent like earlier editions had that improves as they level. I mean how many thieves seemed wise in books? Most learned their skills and got better. Dex makes sense for removing a trap but wisdom to find and never improving? I does not feel right.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am fine with Wisdom being associated with Insight but not Perception.

Perception should be Intelligence. I want smart Rogues, not wise Rogues.
Rembering a maze...intelligence. Noticing the small scratches on the inside of a jewelry boxes that indicates a false bottom...should've been Intelligence.

Anything that involves 'noticing' is wisdom. Smart people miss obvious things all the time. In D&D, the "absent-minded professor", a person with high IQ but poor awareness, is rather well-represented by high-int, low-wis. This is not typically what a rogue is. If anything, wisdom should be more important to a rogue. If you're a genius, why are you stealing/backstabbing for a living?

I know Intelligence has a history of being the dump stat...but let's break the association with Wisdom and Spot/Listen.

I believe this may have been true in editions prior to 3e, and in 4e. However, with skills based off of Int, in 3e it is definitely not a dump stat. Wisdom is generally considered inferior. Both of them probably need a boost relative to the physical abilities.

 

[Empath Negative]

How's about we do the sane thing and make Dexterity the stat for perception?

Because, believe it or not... dexterous is synonymous with being extremely perceptive. According to thesaurus.com.

Third word in for dexterous: Acute.. Main Entry: acute  [uh-kyoot] Show IPA
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: deeply perceptive


If Charisma can have a will component, why not expand the virtues of dexterity as well?

 

[Drowbane]

I intend on keeping Search (Int) seperate from Perception (spot/listen - wisdom). Search tends to be more proactive, where as Perception is more of a passive skill.

I just do not believe the Dali Lama or the Pope is going to be better at spoting a trip wire than a Nobel Scientist...

Nor do I believe that the Dali Lama or the Pope can cast Divine spells. As far as I can tell their wisdom is fairly average. As to the scientist, science is largely observation of the facts. So your Nobel Prize winner perhaps has maxed out ranks in Perception (Wis) in addition to his Knowledge(s) of choice.

[MENTION=6690794]Empath Negative[/MENTION] I think you may be mistaking mental dexterity for what in D&D has always been solely physical dexterity.

dex·ter·i·ty - noun
1. skill or adroitness in using the hands or body; agility.
2. mental adroitness or skill; cleverness.

or

dexter·ous·ness n.
Synonyms: dexterous, deft, adroit, handy, nimble
These adjectives refer to skill and ease in performance. Dexterous implies physical or mental agility: dexterous fingers.
Deft suggests quickness, sureness, neatness, and lightness of touch: deft strokes; a deft turn of phrase.Adroit implies ease and natural skill, especially in challenging situations: an adroit skier; an adroit negotiator.
Handy suggests a more modest aptitude, principally in manual work: handy with tools.
Nimble stresses quickness and lightness in physical or mental performance: nimble feet; nimble wits

The above underlined adjectives might suggest that D&D's Cha would be "mental dexterity".

 

[Empath Negative]

[MENTION=6690794]Empath Negative[/MENTION] I think you may be mistaking mental dexterity for what in D&D has always been solely physical dexterity.

dex·ter·i·ty - noun
1. skill or adroitness in using the hands or body; agility.
2. mental adroitness or skill; cleverness.

or

dexter·ous·ness n.
Synonyms: dexterous, deft, adroit, handy, nimble
These adjectives refer to skill and ease in performance. Dexterous implies physical or mental agility: dexterous fingers.
Deft suggests quickness, sureness, neatness, and lightness of touch: deft strokes; a deft turn of phrase.Adroit implies ease and natural skill, especially in challenging situations: an adroit skier; an adroit negotiator.
Handy suggests a more modest aptitude, principally in manual work: handy with tools.
Nimble stresses quickness and lightness in physical or mental performance: nimble feet; nimble wits

The above underlined adjectives might suggest that D&D's Cha would be "mental dexterity".

And mental dexterity can mean "cunning" A creature that is neither wise, nor terribly intelligent CAN be very cunning... and it is that cunning that allows one to spot traps.

 

[Drowbane]

And mental dexterity can mean "cunning" A creature that is neither wise, nor terribly intelligent CAN be very cunning... and it is that cunning that allows one to spot traps.

While I do not wholely disagree with you, "Cunning" has traditionally fallen under Wisdom in D&D. Animals have 3 int, usually 12-14 Wisdom. The ability to spot traps or perceive hidden foes, find and secure food out in the wild, follow tracks, etc. All wisdom based.